Table of Contents
-With Anita Sandoval LPC
Are you a “yes” person, even when you want to say “NO”? 🤔 Do you constantly prioritize the needs of others over your own? You might be a people-pleaser!
In this insightful episode of The Mental Health Toolbox, Patrick Martin interviews Anita Sandoval, LPC, EMDR-certified therapist, and expert on empowering women to break free from the exhausting cycle of people-pleasing.
Anita shares her expertise on:
- What people-pleasing really is: It’s more than just being nice! We’ll explore the underlying causes, often rooted in trauma and intergenerational patterns.
- How people-pleasing destroys relationships: Learn how prioritizing others’ needs can actually harm your connections.
- The impact on your self-esteem: Discover how people-pleasing can erode your sense of self-worth and authenticity.
- Practical tools to break free: Anita provides actionable steps and strategies you can start using TODAY to reclaim your life and set healthy boundaries.
- Why you need to love them for who they are, not for how they make you feel: See how you can learn to love your love ones for who they are not for how they make you feel.
- How to stop being a victim Narcissist
- Resources: Stay till the end for great ways to find more helpful advice.
This episode is a MUST-WATCH for:
Anyone feeling stuck in unhealthy relationship patterns.
Anyone who suspects they might be a people-pleaser.
Therapists and mental health professionals seeking to better understand and treat clients struggling with people-pleasing behavior.
Women looking to empower themselves and live more authentically.
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Discover our wide range of meticulously crafted and thoughtfully designed workbooks, journals, e-books, and therapy handouts, tailored to empower your therapy practice or personal growth journey. Our diverse collection of resources caters to individuals seeking self-improvement, mental health professionals, and those yearning for deeper self-awareness. Each product is enriched with valuable insights, practical tools, and actionable strategies to help you unlock your full potential, overcome challenges, and achieve lasting change. Explore our SHOP page to find the perfect companion for your transformative journey, and experience the benefits of investing in your well-being today.
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BIO: Anita Sandoval
Anita Sandoval is a licensed professional counselor, EMDR-certified therapist, and neurobiology expert with over 14 years of experience. She is the founder of Positive Awakenings Counseling Center and the host of the podcast Empowering Women in Conversations. Anita is passionate about helping women break free from people-pleasing and generational trauma, empowering them to live authentically and resiliently. Through her EmpowerHer Pathways program, she provides guidance and tools to support women in overcoming relationship struggles and self-doubt. Anita is also the author of Broken Chains: How I Broke the Cycle of Abuse and Neglect and Went from Victim to Survivor, a deeply personal journey of healing and empowerment.
Learn More About: Anita Sandoval and How To Break Free From People Pleasing Behavior
CONTACT AND SOCIALS:
@empoweringwomeninconversations
Anita Sandoval is a Licensed Professional Counselor, EMDR-certified therapist, and the founder of Positive Awakenings Counseling Center. She’s also the host of the “Empowering Women in Conversations” podcast and the author of “Broken Chains,” a powerful memoir of healing and empowerment.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@empoweringwomeninconversations
Website: https://www.anitasandoval.com/
Podcast: https://www.anitasandoval.com/podcast
Book: Broken Chains: https://15b8d4.myshopify.com/products/broken-chains
Watch The Interview
If you liked this episode, be sure to check out my full playlist of interviews here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnPL9gahfhWatKmy2YSyU0jt20h_jrj3H
Listen To The Interview
Do you find yourself bending over backward to keep everyone happy, even at your own expense? Are you terrified of conflict or rejection? You might be caught in the trap of people-pleasing. While wanting to be kind and helpful is a positive trait, when it becomes a core behavior pattern, it can severely impact your relationships and your mental well-being.
As a therapist, I’ve witnessed firsthand the profound ways people-pleasing can undermine happiness. In this blog post, we’ll explore the origins of this behavior, its negative consequences, and, most importantly, how you can learn to develop a secure attachment style for healthier, more fulfilling relationships.
The Roots of People-Pleasing: Where Does It Come From?
People-pleasing isn’t just a personality quirk. It’s often a learned behavior, stemming from early childhood experiences. Here are some common roots:
- Childhood Trauma and Neglect: Children who experience abuse, neglect, or inconsistent parenting may learn that pleasing others is the only way to ensure their safety or gain attention.
- Conditional Love: Growing up with parents who only offered love and approval when you met their expectations can lead to a lifelong need for external validation. You learn that your worth is contingent on what you do, not who you are.
- Anxious Attachment Styles: Children with inconsistent parental support may grow to fear relationships.
- Low Self-Esteem: Those with low-self-esteem tend to value other’s worth more than their own, which leaves a person at odds when dealing with others’ needs.
The Price of Approval: How People-Pleasing Damages Your Relationships and Mental Health
While the intention behind people-pleasing might be positive, the consequences can be devastating:
- Inauthentic Relationships: You’re not showing up as your true self. When you’re always trying to be what others want you to be, genuine connection becomes impossible.
- Eroded Boundaries: By constantly prioritizing others’ needs, you fail to establish healthy boundaries. This can lead to feeling taken advantage of and resentful.
- Compromised Mental Well-being: The relentless pursuit of approval takes a toll on your mental health. People-pleasing can fuel anxiety, depression, and chronic stress.
- Loss of Self-Identity: You become so focused on what others want that you lose touch with your own desires, values, and passions.
- Attracting Unhealthy Partners: People-pleasing can make you vulnerable to manipulative individuals who exploit your desire to please.
- Relationship Burnout: People may become numb to your needs and requests and dismiss them.
- Difficulty Prioritizing Health: Your personal health becomes a low-priority when someone is focusing on everyone elses needs.
The Path to Security: Developing a Secure Attachment Style
A secure attachment style is characterized by trust, emotional availability, and the ability to form healthy, balanced relationships. Here’s how you can move from people-pleasing to secure attachment:
- Self-Reflection and Awareness: Start by exploring the roots of your people-pleasing tendencies. What early experiences shaped your beliefs about relationships and self-worth? Journaling, meditation, and therapy can be valuable tools for self-discovery.
- Challenge Limiting Beliefs: Identify and challenge the negative thoughts that fuel people-pleasing (e.g., “I’m not good enough,” “No one will love me if I say no”). Replace them with more realistic and compassionate self-talk.
- Develop a Strong Sense of Self: Explore your own interests, values, and goals. What makes you unique and fulfilled? Spend time doing things you enjoy, regardless of what others think.
- Practice Self-Care: Prioritize your physical, emotional, and mental well-being. Make time for activities that nourish you, such as exercise, relaxation, or creative expression.
- Assertiveness Training: Learn to express your needs and opinions in a clear, respectful, and direct way. Practice assertive communication techniques, such as using “I” statements.
- Setting Boundaries: Define your limits and communicate them assertively. This might mean saying, “I’m not available to help with that right now,” or “I need some time to myself.” Remember that boundaries are not about controlling others; they’re about protecting yourself.
- Mindfulness and Emotional Regulation: Develop skills to manage your emotions and respond to situations in a calm and rational way. Mindfulness practices, such as deep breathing and meditation, can help you stay grounded in the present moment.
- Work towards what makes YOU feel good: In order to be a healthy partner, make sure you are doing the necessary maintenance and hard work to make YOU feel good. It can be a red flag if you have not interests and hobbies.
- Healthy Support Systems: Be sure to lean and vent to support systems that are healthy and can give good advice to hold you accountable.
Seeking Professional Support:
This blog post is designed to be a starting point. Healing often needs to be tailored to your individual needs by seeing a professional
Conclusion:
The path from people-pleasing to secure attachment is a journey of self-discovery, healing, and empowerment. By understanding the roots of your people-pleasing tendencies, challenging limiting beliefs, and practicing self-care and assertiveness, you can create relationships that are based on authenticity, mutual respect, and genuine connection. You deserve to be loved and valued for who you really are, and that starts with loving and valuing yourself.
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TRANSCRIPT:
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Hey, we’re about to jump right into the content, but before we do, I wanted to let you know about two new products I’ve created for the mental health toolbox. One is a set of 10 audio guided meditations on mindfulness and gratitude, and the other is. A. Journal. It’s digital and you can type right into it or you can print it out and put it into a folder for pen to paper convenience. So be sure to check those out in the description below. All right, let’s get into it.
Speaker 2
Welcome to the mental Health Toolbox Podcast, where you will gain the knowledge to thrive. Here is your host, licensed psychotherapist Patrick Martin.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
When I was getting married, I remember the pastor saying to us, be careful that you don’t lose who you are in the relationship and the further along I get in my marriage, it really resonates with me. And I remember that how important it is to. Be true to ourselves to maintain our independence and how we can be good for each other other people, as we are true doors. Themselves, and it’s not easy thing to do, right. The longer you’re in a relationship, the easier it is to get enmeshed and kind of lose that sense of self. You kind of blur together. And it’s important to kind of stay in tune with what’s important to you. What fills your cup as well as expressing your needs and maintaining. Open communication with not just your partner, but with people in general, others. And relationship really about protecting our sense of self and what we know keeps us charged and happy in life. So today I’m honored and privileged to have our special guest on today. Anita. It’s a licensed professional. She’s an EMDR certified therapist and neurobiology expert with over 14. Experience. She’s the founder of positive Awakenings Counseling Center and the host of the podcast Empowering Women in Conversations.
Speaker
Repl.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Anita is passionate about helping women break free from people pleasing and generational trauma, empowering them to live authentically and resil. Three of her empower her pathways program. She provides guidance and tools to support women in overcoming relationship struggles and self doubt. Anita is also the author of broken chains. How I broke the cycle of abuse and neglect and went from victim to survivor. I deeply personal journey of healing. Empowerment. So this is going to be a great. Be sure you don’t miss a minute. And without further ado, let’s meet Anita. Hello, NIA. Are you and welcome to. Mental health toolbox.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Oh, thank you for having. I’m so excited to be here and just chat with your audience.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Ah, it’s an honor to have you. And we go way back. Have the same mastermind. It’s really fun to kind of be two therapists in the podcasting. We were just chewing the fat before talking about how great it is to see other therapists using a platform like this to really. Help each other out. Other therapists listening in as well as consumers of mental health and just to use. This platform to share our insights into human behavior and how we can all live our best lives. None of us are an expert in everything, but when we come together, we can certainly share our Nuggets of wisdom and help each other out. So very happy that I need as well willing to. Donate her time today to this cause. And we’re going to learn all about the wonderful work she is doing now. We do believe in tools up front here at the mental health toolbox, so I’d like to share with you just. Where you can find out the work, she’s. Take some notes. If you check out her website at anitasandoval.com, you’ll see the wonderful work she is doing here and all of her links. Of course, as well as her free resource library. If you sign up to her newsletter. You can find her podcast on here as well as the work she’s doing. If you have any more questions, there’s her awesome book broken change. It’s going on my reading list here pretty quick. She has a YouTube channel, Anita Sanivol, and you can find her on LinkedIn as well as. The podcast page. And Instagram. So anyway, you want to find. I will make sure to link all of this up into the show notes so you can always connect with Anita when you’re ready. Alright, so Anita, thank you so much for being on today. Excited to hear about. How you got into this space? With empowering women and specifically addressing people pleasing behavior, I think this is a great. For therapists to brush up on, because I don’t know about other therapists, I get a lot. Of this type of clientele in my office and it effects relationships and also self esteem and learning how to communicate needs and boundaries in a relationship. Very important stuff so. Why don’t you show a little bit about? You know how you got into this space? And why you chose your niche down?
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Definitely. Thank you. So I mean. That was like a big loaded question. Did I get that here? So I go. When did I start my path? And to be honest, I feel that. My journey in my childhood growing up in a broken home helped me to be where I’m at today. So I know a lot of people assume that, oh, this thing happened to me. This trauma. And now I can’t, you know, overcame it. Whatever healed. And let’s move forward. Well, I wanted to use what I learned from this experience to help others so that they don’t have to get stuck in the same situation and they don’t have to go through. Trials. Tribulations, challenges, but first and foremost, to know that they’re not. They’re they’re supported and the one thing that my patients normally with the first session, what they tell me is, Oh my gosh, I’m not crazy. You know, because they think all these things, these thoughts of like, is this normal? This not. What am I? Is there something wrong with me? And when I explain to them their behaviors, their thoughts, how everything is just? Common and that no, they’re not. That just that, sire of relief comes up from them like thank you. Someone finally validated and heard me. So yeah. OK so. How did I start? Just knowing in general psychology, when I entered the the college, I knew that I did not want to go into the medical field. But you know, bodily fluids. Oh my gosh, no. And so. But I did know I wanted to help people. And so mental health was something that I was kind of venturing into, you know, big thing for therapists is know your why if you want to go to fit to psychology. Counseling or anything in that mental field. Don’t do it because you want to fix yourself. If you want to do it, you need to do it for other reasons. If you want to work on you, guess what? Why there’s therapy? That’s why there’s support groups. But if you’re starting meshing yourself. And your problems and wanting to go and help others, more than likely there’s going to be that transference and then the validity and success and therapy. Won’t be as highly successful. So that’s tip number one. I knew for sure that I needed to be healed. I needed to make sure that my reasoning for going into counseling or in this aspect was for the right reasons, and that was really just to help people to know that there is. Another way. Looking at things and moving forward because I’ve already been. There. So then once I went to the route of actually wanted to be in psychology and I was like, OK, well, I like psychology, but I love sociology too, which is the study of human behavior and the study of the mind. I knew through classes I did not want to. A researcher per. Just doing reports. I wanted to be with people and so when I got my degree, I also became a school counselor, high school and middle school. I also was a teacher, so in teaching I knew Nope, this isn’t for me working with a lot of kids. Want it one-on-one. During the intern process going to school, I made sure that I went through different. Different routes, such as a substance abuse facility, private practice, I went into the government also within juvenile. You want to be able to touch foot of every little part. So you could get to know a little bit about yourself of what you want to do and not to. So then for me, because I was a single mom at that time, I knew that I needed to do something more. one-on-one where I could set my hours more flexible, but still help people. So once you graduate, get your masters, you got your license. You’re doing all of that. And you know, lo and behold, I ended up getting. Remarried and I said, well, you know, luckily you want to be able to have support with someone because starting a business, starting a private practice. Yeah. Yeah, it’s really hard. Luckily, now we have the Internet we have here, Patrick, that helps also. You know, people get started. I mean, we didn’t have that back then. I had to just, like, get books.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
While.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Don’t. Did you have that, Patrick? Did you?
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
That’s great that you bring this. It’s fun to hear the validation on many touch points here. I was also. I had never intended to go into social work. Was or. I wasn’t on my radar. I wanted to be a pharmacist and so it was funny because I wasn’t very good at math or science.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
What?
Speaker
Yes.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
I just didn’t want to be poor. So I fell in love with sociology, though in undergrad, and after I finished pre Med and everything I was like wow, I don’t. I love sociology. I love. I do want to be a pharmacist and be stuck behind a a desk somewhere.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
And then after some exploration and some advice, I look into social work and pivoted. And you know as a, you know, Fri feels a great fit like you said for the right reasons. Because I I love to help. I love to help people who are stuck and I grew up with such an unorthodox life and I learned how to be scrappy and think outside the box and. I know that where you start in life doesn’t determine where you end up, and then you can recreate yourself. At any point that you want. That is not linear. And so that’s my why, you know, I love to help people get unstuck that way and and get past their own limiting beliefs about what could be in their future and sense of purpose and.
Speaker
Yes.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
But I start with sociology, so love it.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yes, just like me, definitely. Love. Yeah, I.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Right.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
No wonder we get along so well.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Right. But when I came to the private practice thing, I started the telehealth stuff. Before it was a thing and I still had.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Me too in 2016. Oh and. Looked at me like I was crazy. I other therapist. Other therapist would tell. So how’s that online thing going?
Speaker
Yeah.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
I’m like it’s a thing and you know, even when I was getting my. Dr. Training I was like, hey, do you have anything? Because I see patients online like, yeah, no, it’s not going to be a thing. Boom COVID happened within that month. I’m like, OK.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
When see this. It’s funny how the world works, but I do believe in the benefit of being creative and exploring different avenues and opening other doors because you never know where it’s going to lead, right? Think. It’s what sometimes called a 20% rule. You know, have, you know, have some playroom and I think the best inventions come from that. You know, look at Google, right.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
I think YouTube was was that it was a playground of like, you know, they give them like percentage of time just to play around with ideas and stuff. Just a number of things come from that you. The iPhone is the same thing with Apple. I was came from a playroom. Know playroom is important. You know, entertain our ideas, and if something doesn’t work, doesn’t work, that’s fine. Never know what’s going to come.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Exactly. And you know.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Yeah.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Do show that people change their their careers. Least three to five times. So if for me I had started younger as a medical assistant. And then, you know, remember, working in in the hospital and I was. Like not for. And that’s how I pivoted. I was like Nope, not going to be a nurse. Going to be a no, no, no, no, no. And you know, like I said it. And even then, when you get your degree, they’re not going to tell you what you know. Other things are going to be where you’re going to niche into niche. And so for me was like, oh, yeah, okay. Well, you know, counseling. Whatever. Right. And you start in.
Speaker
Mm.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
And you start seeing the issues that come in and you’re like, wait a second, OK? First of all, what modality are you going to use? And they give you all these modalities. But you now have to figure out what is your body going to gravitate to. Is your mind really? You know, wanting to use and and then just learn that because if you want, I remember I used to say, oh, existential therapist, I’ll just do a little bit of this and that when. And now I’m just like, oh, no, no, no going on. You know, this year will be my 15th year. And I’m just like, oh, my gosh, you know, like always what? And you know my my teacher when I was getting my. Masters, he told me. It’s gonna take about 10 years. Before you become really seasoned in what you’re doing and back then, it was just like 10 years. My God. But. Yeah, I get. Now you know to know, and still we don’t know it all. ’cause we have to do the CEUS continue education. And so knowing little by little when the patients come in, what is your style that you turn to? Is the style that you like going into the continuing education? You start going. Yeah, this isn’t for me. Client centered was not for me. I’m ADHD. And so me just. No, I need to be like, OK. The. Let’s go do this. Can do that. And so I grabbed it towards CBT. You know, reality therapy, where things don’t function back then. Things function back then you know your behaviors, but they don’t function right now. And then CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, how your thoughts affect your behaviors. And so I really just gravitated to those two. But then? You know what ended up happening was, yeah, I I liked it. Everything was great. But I felt like there was needing more because I I was. I was having some patients come in, mostly the PTSD complex trauma and it just wasn’t working. And I’m like, OK, what’s happening? It was. It was stuck and I had to, you know, consult which, by the way, is huge. If we don’t, you need to consult with other therapists. No way you can do it alone, hence. Like, I feel like me and Patrick. I’m like, yes, I found someone else, you know, it’s ’cause. It’s so different. Know we. And luckily, we have now the online where we can do support groups and chat groups and consultation groups. So amazing. And So what ended up happening? I remember just researching and listening to other podcasts and this one person I want to say was Bruce Lipton. He’s also an MD and he said, oh, EMDR really helped me. Like what is this EMDR? And I started researching it and thinking, Oh my gosh, how have I not heard about this? And well, I live in a little town here, South Texas, Rio Grande Valley. Very, very little. So it’s. A real big and innovative and so I always felt so alone here. But hey, it is what it is. I need to always enrich my mind. And you know the closest was in Austin, which is five hours away. I said, you know what? I don’t care. I’m gonna do it and invested the money because it’s. But then you have to look at the investment and EMDR, which is I movement desensitization and reprocessing. That is where we can utilize visual stimulation tones tactiles to help. From the left side of the brain, from the right side of the brain, to become processed. You know, it kind of just like moves over. But we use bilateral stimulation, which is like a 2 tone. So think of it as like one step in the past and one step in the. We’re telling the body, hey, we’re here so we can go ahead and get access into the memory Bank of those memories. So that that disturbing. Images that goes within the nervous system, the autonomic nervous system gets. So then it just becomes a memory and the body the nervous system doesn’t react toward. And so when I found out that you can actually use it where less treat less amount of sessions to be able to help and treat the patient and that other celebrities would use it, World Health Organization approved it international. The Veterans Affairs and Europe uses it. Was just like, OK, no. And yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Yeah, I think EMDR is definitely one of the most backed evidence based practices there. There has, you know, that’s out there. It’s been, it’s been around for a while and still kind of the main the main thing for things like PTSD. And there’s other forms like brain spot. And prolonged.
Speaker
I heard that.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
But MDR is still. King, you know.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah, yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
When it comes to and it’s, it’s not just for trauma, right? For a number of things.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Dinner now. Yeah, anxiety, depression, addictions, eating disorders, you know? There’s of course because. Special diagnosis. They have special protocols for. It’s not just, you know, cut, but that’s where the the training comes in. And so that’s normally what I focus. Now what I introduced with it is the ifs which is called internal family systems and kind of new with it. But I love it. And I even told another therapist when we. Last week. How did I not know of? Like, Oh my gosh, you know, so this is where I tell the new. New therapists get to know what’s. I mean, EMD has been in for 30 years, over 30 years, and I just found out, you know, in 2018. How did I not know this and so being able to just continue to see what else is out there because you never know? And so ifs talks about parts work and it’s like like Patrick, like you say, different same name or different names, same packaging is just, you know, they change it up. And so it’s more. Of defense mechanisms. Because of what happened with, let’s say, caregivers growing up. Trauma your body. Develops defense mechanisms. So whenever we say that word to patients, defense might they’re like, oh, no, I have none. I’m good.
Speaker
I’m good.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Right, it’s. I don’t want to talk.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Like that was one right there.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah, I know, right? I know. I literally would have patients come in and going. My partner wants me to come. I don’t know why I think I’m. They’re the problems, but you know, and I’m just like, OK. And that’s a. And so yeah, we developed defense. We call them parts work and there’s different types of parts. We have the healthy part. We have the vulnerable. That’s a traumatic exile part. Then we have the protectors, which are the managers and the firefighters. Some are like okay, like the type. Pleasing those are the protectors that protect against the trauma. And then we have the firefighters. Are the ones who are like the alcoholic substance abuse gambling shopping addictions. They do this to protect. Themselves, and even though it’s self-destructive, they’re the ones that go. But did you die? Welcome. That’s what the firefighters. I know it’s a way of surviving, and so the more the therapists Start learning about this, they can then start incorporating that within the patients when they come in so.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Right, right.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah. Anywho, I know.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
It’s fascinating. Now there’s some more, more digging into internal family systems. I’ve heard of. I’ve kind of dipped my toe into it, but yeah, I think maybe I’ll spend some time educating myself around.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yes, yes.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Sounds fascinating.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah, it is. It. With complex PTSD. Dissociation as well because when we work with dissociation, that’s not something that I get into when it’s, you know when it’s that much. But parts work help so much ’cause at least you’re talking to the part that’s covering the trauma because. A lot of therapists, the new ones, you might assume. OK, we go in and we just work with the trauma. Yeah, but whenever you have an army of defence mechanisms. They’re hiding, you know, in front of the trauma. That’s the brick wall.
Speaker
So.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Absolutely. You know, you’ll know when you hit a nerve, right? Thank you. Yeah.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Oh, yes, yes, yes, definitely.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
I’ve had somebody will switch up on you pretty quick, yeah.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah. Yeah and.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
That’s. So you go, you kind. It’s been a journey for you then going from getting to the educational space. Not really for me to maybe school counselor one-on-one. Not really my cup of tea. To counseling and then niching down into EMDR trauma work and then internal family systems. Yeah. And yet we’re still not quite there. Got into dealing with empowering women. What led you from there to here?
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yes. Oh, my gosh. Let me tell you, OK. So then within the, within the years of therapy, I started noticing that I just the women gravitated towards me and I would help them. You know, with these tools techniques and I realized, Oh my gosh, like I’m really good with this. I’m not so good with this, which is like another thing that therapists when they’re coming in, you have to know your strengths and weaknesses. And you know, #1 know your biases. If you do not know your biases, there’s no way you’re going to be a healthy, productive counselor. You know it’s the same reason. It’s the same thing as knowing your why you’re entering into therapy and it’s not. Heal you. It’s to heal them. And so we all. We all have our defense mechanisms. We all have triggers. But if you don’t, if you’re not aware of those triggers, and then the biases within your culture, or you know intergenerational belief system, and you see someone that is going against your biases. You could really harm a patient. And I have seen where patients go into therapy, where the therapist is anti LGBT. And then tell and that’s a bias of theirs. And they know that the patient then discloses LGBT, you know, issues or situations. This is where the therapist then can say you know what? Is beyond my best practices. And it would be best to refer you with someone we can work together. To be able to find. Right. Therapist for you. Because we cannot see everybody. And so it’s like.
Speaker
Mm.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
That’s really good advice, really good advice, because I think a lot of times barely for new therapists who aren’t as familiar with counter transference.
Speaker
And they.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
May have heard the term in Graduate School, but they don’t. Sometimes they can catch you out of left field because there’s, you know, talk about bias. Know there’s something called implicit bias. There’s bias, like you might say. I’m a Christian and. If I get a client who’s drove a witness, I know there’s going to be some religious distinctions there, and I might want to. Watch myself, right? So I don’t come off with judgmental, but implicit bias is a little bit different because it’s kind of buried, meaning like it’s a bias that we’re not even necessarily cognitively aware of. Right. We’re not cognizant of. We have to be very careful and that’s why I think. As we’re learning the art of therapy, it’s very, very, very important to keep checking in with ourselves. That’s why in Graduate School, they have you process recordings. Right. There’s a reason behind. It’s not just busy work, it’s so that you can process how you’re thinking and feeling so that those implicit biases can come up, and then you can identify them so you know to be sensitive about them. So you know, to check yourself before. You’re you engage, right?
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yes, definitely.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
And so I think, like you said, we can, we’re not for everybody. Every. Not every relationship with a client is going to be a good fit, and that’s just good practices. Is when you can identify that and say, hey, you know this could I see this person? Yes, but am I? Giving them the best. Option of treatment by giving them their best you know to my understanding and if we can identify that. You know a high friction, or maybe it’s different values that it’s just going to be an impediment to their treatment than the ethical thing to do. To refer. Out for sure without admitting them.
Speaker
Yes, of course.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Best practices work together to find the right I. Usually have my list. And you know, work through those emotions because you’re right, they may feel like it’s like a. The relationship with the you know with the therapist like, oh, my gosh, you’re firing me. You’re abandoning me? You’re breaking up with me. And so working together for that. And you know, like for me, I’m well aware because my niece is in people pleasing and empowering women in failed relationships become successful. The people. Don’t like me and I don’t work well. With our narcissist. So you know, or yeah, or narcissist traits and and that’s OK. I had to be aware of that I when I was beginning, I would see the males not they I had a contract with CPS and so they would just come in.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
That makes sense.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
And so the males would be so. And that’s when I had to tell the caseworker. No, as much as you want to give them to me, they’re not a good fit and I’m not doing them justice. You’re going to have to find them some someone else. But I can see the spouse. And, you know couples counseling the same. I always recommend this so everybody, every counselor is different. However, normally best practices is if you’re seeing in couples counseling, if you’re seeing one person. Then the other person sees another counselor. And then the couple see another one. That way you collaborate with one another and no one goes. Oh my gosh, you’re taking their side. Taking my side now. Does it mean that you don’t have to know? Can do that, but you have. To really be an expert in in couples counseling, and know that if you’re seeing the one person individual that those issues might come about, so you know, for me best practices. Is I see one person, whether it’s couples or individual, but they have to see another counselor and for the couples. And I just collaborate with them and we work together and it’s worked amazing because of it. So yeah, that’s great.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
What a great. And I think again that takes a lot. Insight to know like. Because sometimes as a therapist, especially in private practice, you know for new, like sometimes it’s hard to turn referrals away, like when you know. But I think also kind of knowing how you serve it your best is important.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yes. And just being honest with yourself and. I can’t tell you. One of the things that in the beginning you’re going to get patients that are just going to be mad at you. They’re going to blame you for everything. Going to walk away and leave and go. You’re good. And this is where you get a support system with other councillors going. What? Let’s debrief, because even regular Md’s, whenever something happens, they do the M&M you know, and they debrief on the case. We need to debrief on cases as well to know okay what happened here so. The reason why I’m so insightful within myself is because it’s not all bells and whistles, guys. It’s this reality idealism that patients going to come in successions later. Boom.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Mm hmm.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Problem solved. That’s just an irrational belief, because every case is different and we’re going to sometimes just miss the. And being compassionate to oneself, learning, not taking it personal, but but also knowing okay what can I do next time? That is one of like top tips for. For therapists.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
I love that. Make sure you guys are taking notes here.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
And that’s how I start going back some here all over the place. But no, it really it. It does have a lineage here. So going through those trials and tribulations knowing, hey, you know what I gravitate towards these type of demographics type of.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Definitely.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
And then during COVID, this is when it happened during COVID. I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, there’s just so many people. I was getting burned out. Counseling burnout is a thing. I just can’t. Yeah. I developed an autoimmune and.
Speaker
OK.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Man, the statistics with counseling, burnout and disorders and you know, diseases, it’s just. Just crazy and so. I was like, I need to do. I need to work smart, not hard, and want to be able to reach my audience. I remember my podcast first starting with conversations at work during Covic. Just here are some. Here are some strategies to help you out during Covic. And and then, you know, stress and just kind of playing around with it. But then I started noticing and just kind of looking what is my audience like? Are my patient population. Is. I gravitate to who gravitates towards me. Where is my successes. And that I’m getting when it comes to therapy. Who am I? So these are just questions that I was always reflecting within myself to try to better myself as a therapist and that’s when I realized that most of my demographics were women. They were normally within 30 to 50. They were, you know, had jobs, working class and they were mostly in field relationships. And then I noticed people pleasing. And I cannot tell you how that came about. I read a lot and so some therapists, somewhere, somehow, you know, said about this, and it dawns in my like memory. I remember some of the parents telling me whenever there was CPS cases. And you know, situations with their kids and they would say but but they they like them. But you know if they hated them, why wouldn’t they, you know? Say something which showed that they liked them. And you know, we came up with a Stockholm. How they would fall in love with the perpetrator and whatnot. And I said, well, you know, what is this other like, you know, that always got to me like, yeah, I mean, I know that. And that’s how people pleasing Kim Bow and I started learning about that because back then it was this fight flight freeze. But then they started realizing, hey, wait, a wait a second. We have fun. Have appeasing we have people pleasing? And so, you know, this whole people pleasing thing started coming about as well. And I said, huh. OK. And then looking at my audience and my population of who I was helping, I noticed that that was one of the biggest issues. And then I reflected within myself as well, you know, growing up in a household where my mother was a victim narcissist. Mostly the men were narcissists themselves. And what did I learn to do? People please. You know, it’s a way to survive. And then what? I realized, even after all this healing, you know, was done that that behavior of fight flight frees people please and appease. You know, these are autonomic. They don’t really go. It’s just defense mechanisms are there, like in the ego parts ifs, but they’re there to protect you. And you need to be aware of. So that way you can, you know, stop and rethink and challenge and then do something else. And so I started learning how to do that. And you know, to be honest. One of the biggest thing is having a support system. And my husband was like my number one. I you know, I you want to say this President, you know to. Who? Who’s? A big people pleaser and say you know what, I’m a people pleaser. I tend to. Please, I tend to say yes and do things I don’t like so. I just want you to be aware of that, that sometimes I may say yes, when I mean no. And I’m going to maybe take a pause. Might rethink things. I just want you to know. You want to say this to not a narcissist, to not if someone’s going to. You someone that you can trust?
Speaker
Is it?
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Definitely looking up that you know you’re going to tell a narcissist. Save. Be vulnerable with the safe ones and.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Because an arc is just may look at that and use that as an like a leverage point. Right now this person is going to be.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah. And they’ll trust me. They case they case, the narcissist will case you and they will spot you and you know, knowing yourself is huge as a therapist and or as a people pleaser. And when I became aware of that, I was like, wait a second. Whoa. And where I live, it’s new because everything is new. We get the stuff like many years later and I said no, my people need to know this. My patients need to know this and I just was researching every. Everything, and then even my my husband. Like let’s say something as simple. This guys well. I say, what do you want to? Because, you know, partners are always wanting to know what the other. Wants to eat. And.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Like a 2 hour conversation we.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
I don’t know, right? Know. Oh my gosh. My husband will send me memes of like, restaurants that says whatever. Like so. Yeah, whenever I would say, let’s say I wanted. Chinese. And then he’s like, yeah, you know, I feel like barbecue. And I’m like, OK. Can do barbecue and. Looks at me and he says. No, you said you wanted Chinese. You don’t go with what I say just because I want to go here doesn’t mean you have to do what I say. You chose. So therefore we’re doing this. And I just like I didn’t even realize it was a reflex to be like, oh, you know, yeah. And, you know, having that support system that will call you out, not in a shaming way, but in a in a very compassionate way. Did you know? You just did this? You know? But no, don’t worry, I got you. Going to do what you. And it’s going to feel. Let me tell you because yeah, I.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Think about deferring. We defer to other people or quick to compromise when they don’t ask. Right.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah, you know, and that’s part of the people pleasing where? You your values, your you know your. They come last and it doesn’t have to be trauma. It could be something as simple as intergenerational ’cause. We’re women, and oh, we’re the caregivers were the nurturers. Have to take care of the other person.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
The narrative.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah, the. Yeah, the narrative as it is. Luckily, things are changing within this generation. So then we have the conflict of the past generation with this generation.
Speaker
Mm.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Where they. At you and Oh my gosh, let me tell you, you know. Went to a. A family barbecue and you know, here the women are supposed to serve the men. I don’t do. You know, I’m an empowered woman. And he’s got two good hands and two good feet, and luckily he’s very modern and he’ll serve himself and people.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Right, right.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Were like what the I’m with my. I’m, you know, dealing with my kids and you know he’s feeding himself. Anything he’s like. Hey, Hun, what do you need serving me and. Are just like what? Is happening here. The world’s going to end. So yeah, when you say narrative, it’s huge and and when it comes to people pleasing where I am at now, so people pleasing, like I said, one of the common things is I just wanted to go away. And it doesn’t work that way. Because one thing I always tell people is can we? Can we break a habit? No, we can’t break. You know, people say, oh, break a habit and. Can’t break it? We can merely replace it ’cause we got something called memory. Yeah. And so I go people business always going to be there. What do we replace it with empowerment? With resilience. Authenticity. And and so the journey where I’m at didn’t go happen one day to the other. It took years of, you know, habits of learning myself and it’s it’s a journey, not a destination. And so, you know, in the end what ended up happening during COVID, I started learning more and more. And that’s when I said, OK, I’m going to focus on the nervous system, hence the neurobiology, which is the study of the brain. And the body, because of the EMDR I needed to work. What part of the brain works with? How does the the brain work when it comes to the nervous system? Using the neuroscience model of Doctor Bruce Perry, the Brain works bottom up. You first have to calm your nervous system, then you can make connections and then you can use the prefrontal cortex to. Eyes. And so knowing these things, then I was able to kind. Tune fine tune my therapy sessions, fine tune my niche and. The sessions and progress was like this. Just. Know learning.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
I love that I love. So let’s kind of dive into that for a second. For those therapists listening in right now who might be dealing with some people pleasing behavior. What is what’s what can? We practically do in. What kind of framework can we use to help? Help. And effect change with clients who are kind of stuck in that kind of behavior pattern.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah, that loop of people pleasing definitely because you know that loop begins with checking the people. They happy not. And if they’re not happy people pleasing kicks in as a survival skill and so. What I created with my framework and again it took a lot. Of you know, getting to know there’s two components I use and you might know this for the new ones or seasoned therapists when it comes to substance abuse, they use something called the stages of change.
Speaker 4
Mm.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
And then of course, when it comes to. We use the stages of grief.
Speaker
Mm.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
So I don’t know. The creativity in my mind is where I use my strengths. Know you apply the concept in different ways. I yeah.
Speaker
Sure, sure.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
So then I then realized, Oh my gosh, it’s the same thing. You know we the the people need to go where they where they act now, OK. So you. To do the intake, you do all the assessments you see where they’re at. The behavioral symptoms you check their goals. And then you work with where are. Right now. Where are they with the stages of change? Are they in the pre? Do they not know where they’re at, that their people pleasers? Because let me tell you, when they come in and I go oh. So you tend to do this, this, this and that. Just talk about the. Here and then I mentioned. Did you know that that’s an autonomic nervous response with people pleasing and Ryder was like, I don’t like that word. No. Yeah. And that means that they’re not yet ready. And then the stages of grief, because you got to work on becoming the person you do. You are wanting to become. But in order to become. You have to let go of the person who you were and again let go. You can’t because you’re still going to be there still going to be there, but you don’t want them to be front and center. Want. Kind of put them in a happy place where they don’t need to come out and they’re happy where they’re at. Because again. We have memory and so. The Star Wars. I love that movie and the Yoda, he says. In order to create, we must destroy. And yeah, we have to destroy.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
I love it.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
The habits, the thoughts that go with it, and then we need to replace it with something else and it’s not set in like it’s not easy. When they come in. You look at the behaviors you look at the symptoms you look at where their thought processes are and just kind of gauge where they’re at, if they’re in denial, that’s OK. They’re in denial we just mentioned. What what they’re doing and where they’re at. You set the treatment plan by second session. You work with the interventions, whether it’s CBT, EMDR, ifs or whatever. And you gauge with where they’re at. And then you work with. Those stages of change. Also, the stages of grief of you know, are they willing to let go? And yeah, there’s different. Sometimes you’re going to work with defense mechanisms, sometimes using bottom up, because that’s how therapy works. We first have to work on calming the nervous. How can they know to change what they can’t even calm their nervous system?
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
So right. Because if we’re, if we’re honest activated state, our critical thinking, our executive functioning doesn’t work. Can’t really go there because we’re in survival mode, right?
Speaker
Yes, yes.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
So first we have to. Activate that. You know, tap the brakes on our nervous system. Right? And.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yep. Yep, exactly.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Grounding skills and mindfulness before we can do the deep work for sure.
Speaker 4
Oh.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah. And, you know, even then, sometimes you’re gonna spend several sessions and then some, and then you’re gonna go back and, you know, there’s something that I give my patients when it comes to therapy. A paper that discusses the progress of therapy. It’s it’s not all linear. You’re gonna. It’s gonna go. And then you’re just gonna go like 2. Forward. One step forward, 2 steps back sometimes. And and that’s OK, because everybody’s different and has nothing to do with you is just getting to know the process of the person and the therapeutic relationship accounts for at least 70 to 80% of success.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Absolutely. That’s what I learned.
Speaker
Ful.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Stats stats are in. Remember, in grad school, my teacher always say healing takes place in the context of the relationship, regardless of the intervention. Like the interventions are important, but if there’s not rapport.
Speaker
Yes.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Then nothing’s really going to work.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah, seek to understand before you can be understood. And so our number one job for you know, therapist is we seek to understand we’re curious. We don’t put in our biases and then they’ll be able to understand us and be able to, you know, be vulnerable enough to listen to the strategies we give them.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Right. Wonderful. Wonderful advice. Absolutely. That’s a beautiful thing about human behavior, is it hasn’t changed since the dawn of time, right? A lot of other things change, but. People, I mean, look at any, any piece of ancient literature on human behavior.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Whether it’s meditations or. Even like Napoleon Hills work in the 1920s like.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
The. I mean, human behavior is. I mean, as it’s as it’s recorded, you know, not really. You know how we respond to stress hasn’t really changed how we respond to threat. Know how we do relationships. The stage may change a bit, but not not how we play on it so. That’s what makes therapy so wonderful is that as we learn, we can teach, you know, about points of intervention on human behavior.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
We can help help clients and.
Speaker
Yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Other therapists seek to understand the self. You know we can affect change. I bet it all starts with under seeking understanding like you said.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. And I know that one of the new things I started getting into last year, I became certified as a clinical service provider in ADHD. And you know. Of the things I realized was as a people pleaser, I was like, huh? Like I’m going bottom up. But yet the rational part isn’t working as much like what’s happening. You know, we’ll get it. But you know there. I knew there was something.
Speaker
Mm.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
So and behold, you know, I got to know about ADHD. Like you said, it’s been going on for years. I I was reading up on the history of it, of it, and even Socrates would write about, oh, there’s these type of people that are just like. They’re just so restless and you know, they just all over the place and they’re not able to just think. And I’m like, WOW, ADHD has been going on for years, thousands of years. They just, you know, call it some. Something else? Well, once I realized the biological component of ADHD and how there is a deficit in the executive functioning skills biologically.
Speaker
Thanks to.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
And once we were able to work on that component, whoa, like progress was night and day. And I was just like, floored. Which you know, which begs to say that we never know everything. We’re always learning on progress of therapy and different things that can part, you know, can put into play with situations like.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
I love it. I love it 100% and everything you shared your journey into the space and I think it’s really gonna be a benefit to all the other therapists, especially the new therapist listening in or watching. That, you know, it’s a journey. Just understand like as you get. Clock time with different types of issues, different types of clients. You will get a feel for where you find the most energy, where you feel most passionate. About helping and then you can zero in on to your. Niche. Yeah, but nothing’s ever ever set in stone. No. And you’ll find your your. And that’s an interesting thing about therapy is it’s as much of an art as it is a science, you know. And if we get too hung up on the protocols and. Checking the. Sometimes we lose the big picture and working with clients and that is that we’re holding space.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
That. We are again seeking to understand in a non judgment. Way with positive, unconditional, positive regard and. We will find our happy place in terms of where we like to work with clients, right? Definitely. If you are working with clients who are dealing with passivity, people, pleasing behaviour, anxious attachment styles definitely reach out to Anita. She’s got a wealth of resources for you. We shared her website. Podcast or YouTube? Everything you know there you can check out her book, but of course get in touch with Anita if. There’s any help you need there and I’m sure you’ll gain a lot of wisdom and some good practical. Action steps. You know the work you’re doing. If you have any clients who are struggling with people pleasing behavior, definitely send them her way for some good resources and her resource library, which is free. So.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah. And you know, even in the podcast, what I ended up doing, I set a series of people pleasing part 123.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Yeah.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
So that way now even my own patients, I’m like, you know. What I’m going to do, you want even better so you don’t have to be paying. Much. Therapy just to know the Psycho education part of it.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Mm hmm.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Listen to this podcast and there’s a three-part series, and let me tell you, they binge like, Oh my gosh, I was binging all these episodes and I had no idea about all this. Know people pleasing part and then of course, the fear of reject. And the pain of abandonment, which is part of people pleasing. How to get rid of Mr. right? I mean, Mr. wrong and find Mr. Right, because these are common symptoms of people pleasing but first and foremost, I send them. What is people pleasing part 1-2 and three?
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Here it is.
Speaker
I see.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
It 123, yeah.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
And so that way when they come back to you in therapy, they already know the education part. And now the real work starts with, OK, you know, so if they’re in denial, that’s where I send them. I’m like. Well, you know. Just listen to this episode. Humor me. And if it’s not you, that’s OK. And for the most part, when they listen to that episode, they come back going, Oh my gosh, I didn’t know that was people pleasing and that really resonated with me and my partner does this. And I do this. So that’s what’s been so helpful with the success of therapy as well.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Oh, and again, thank you for the work you’re doing and this is I think, you know, I’m on a mission to nudge other therapists into. Using platforms like this to help more people.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yes.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
And again, therapy is not, I mean obviously podcast is not therapy. Is not. YouTube is not therapy, but it’s a resource.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Is a resource library. Where in a world where people are thirsty for practical knowledge, right? Not just more sound. And who better than to deliver that than people who are? Trenches doing the work right?
Speaker
Yes.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yes, we’re not AI.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. Yes, we are people. We’re in the I say when people ask what I do because you know, in social worker therapy, like, that word has so many connotations to it. Yeah, sometimes I just I self people puzzles.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yes, yes, we’re problem solvers definitely. And I think that’s why I love it so much. Because you know, I love puzzles and, wow, I’ll be like, OK, they’re here. Here they’re. And I know I just like I get too into it. Just my mole as I like to say it, it’s my. It’s my thing. So yeah.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
I love it. I love. Well, thank you for the work you’re doing. It up, Anita. And you’re always, always welcome on the. Just tap my shoulder and look forward to seeing all. All you do down the road.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Thank you. Thank you for.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Well, thanks. Well, until next time have a great week. Thriving. And remember to stay curious. And live your best life.
****ANITA SANDOVAL., LPC****
Yes, thank you likewise.
****PATRICK MARTIN, LCSW****
Thank. Hey, if you’re getting value from this content and you haven’t done so already, be sure to like and subscribe to the YouTube channel and podcast and be sure to subscribe to the MHT newsletter. That way you don’t miss out on any new content as it’s released. Links in the description.
Speaker 2
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