Why Therapy Fails Men (And How to Fix It) – Insights with Marc Azoulay

Episode: Why Therapy Fails Men (and How to Fix It) – Live with Marc Azoulay
Host: Patrick Martin, LCSW (The Mental Health Toolbox)
Guest: Marc Azoulay, LPC, LAC, CGP, ACS (Founder of Men’s Therapy Online)

Are you a therapist striving to enhance your effectiveness with male clients? Do you sense that conventional therapeutic methods sometimes miss the mark?

In this vital discussion from The Mental Health Toolbox, Patrick Martin, LCSW, sits down with Marc Azoulay, LPC, LAC, CGP, ACS, the visionary founder of Men’s Therapy Online. They delve deep into the systemic issues, clinical strategies, and cultural nuances that significantly impact the therapeutic journey for men. Marc offers a powerful perspective, blending psychoanalysis, neuroscience, and Buddhism, to help therapists uncover and address the unconscious barriers that both clients and practitioners might encounter.

If you’re ready to refine your approach and achieve better outcomes for your male clients, this episode is packed with actionable insights.

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About Our Guest: Marc Azoulay, LPC, LAC, CGP, ACS

Marc Azoulay is the founder of Men’s Therapy Online, a community and healing hub dedicated to helping men get back on their feet and elevate their lives. With his team of licensed clinicians, Marc provides ongoing men’s groups, individual counseling, and transformative wilderness retreats. His unique approach, rooted in psychoanalysis, neuroscience, and Buddhism, empowers men to identify and dismantle the unconscious barriers holding them back, guiding them to become their best selves and show up authentically in their lives, communities, and relationships.

• Learn more about Marc and his work: www.menstherapy.online
• Listen to Marc’s Podcast: Men’s Therapy Podcast

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Key Discussion Points & Takeaways:

(0:01:22) Introduction & The Mission:

• Patrick introduces Marc Azoulay and the core topic: addressing the challenges and stigmas men face in accessing mental healthcare, and how therapists can be more inclusive and effective.
• Marc’s mission: Break down stigma and get more men talking. His practice is an “a la carte IOP” focusing on community healing.

(0:04:07) Marc’s Journey into Men’s Therapy:

• Marc shares his personal story, including recovery from drug addiction in his early twenties.
• He realized that true recovery involved understanding and redefining his masculinity beyond just sobriety.
• He discusses the “nice guy” syndrome prevalent in Millennial and Gen X men, stemming from cultural messages that demonized traditional male traits, leading to resentment and unhealthy coping mechanisms.

(0:06:03) Generational Masculinity & The “Anti-Personality”:

• Patrick relates to the “yes man” and people-pleasing tendencies.
• Marc explains how Boomer masculinity often defined itself as “anti-woman” (leading to fragile, negative definitions like “don’t cry, don’t show emotion”).
• Gen X and Millennials, often lacking father figures or having negative paternal role models, reacted by becoming “anti-toxic masculinity.” While less destructive, this is still an “anti-personality.”
• The core challenge: Moving from an “anti” stance to a positive definition of what one wants to be as a man.

(0:13:00) The Right Use of Force & Buddhist Influences:

• The importance of assertive, masculine force (strength) used constructively, not destructively.
• Marc shares his Zen archery analogy: Western archery focuses on maximum force/distance, while Zen archery focuses on the right amount of force to notch an arrow in hay – a metaphor for nuanced strength.
• His background studying contemplative psychotherapy (Buddhist therapy) at Naropa University, including silent meditation retreats. The present moment became his higher power in recovery.

(0:17:20) Why Therapy Traditionally Fails Men:

• Men often try everything else before therapy, usually hitting a “rock bottom” (e.g., divorce, substance use disorder consequences).
• Men may be less biologically attuned to emotional nuance (a female superpower).
• Stigma & Asking for Help: Asking for help is often perceived as weakness or failure.
• Dominance Hierarchy (0:19:16): Men can perceive seeking help from a therapist as a submissive act, making the therapist “better” or dominant. This resists the idea of mentorship, which is a powerful masculine role.
• Safety vs. Respect (0:22:25): While women often need to feel safe in therapy, men (who generally feel physically safer in the world) primarily need to feel respected.
  • Respect is built by challenging appropriately, self-disclosure (humanizing the therapist), direct/blunt communication (cursing if appropriate), and discussing “brutal” aspects of masculinity (aggression, sexuality).
  • Shared physical challenges (like hikes/retreats) build primal respect.
• Communication Styles (0:25:07): Men often bond “in parallel” (e.g., watching a game, hunting) rather than direct, sustained face-to-face emotional talk, which can feel threatening or weird in therapy.

(0:27:27) Actionable Advice for Therapists Working with Men:

• Start with Object-Oriented Conversation: Don’t rush to deep emotions. Allow men to bond by talking about their car, job, hobbies, “war stories.” This is how they build rapport.
• Self-Disclose Appropriately: Show them you’re human and can relate by sharing who you are through what you do.
• Don’t Be Afraid to Challenge: Men often explicitly state they want a therapist to “call me on my bullshit.” Move beyond constant validation (which can feel dismissive) to holding them accountable.
• Establish an “Honor Code” (Values Work) (0:29:50):
  • Use a values card sort or similar exercise.
  • Crucially, remember these values and hold the client accountable to them. This provides a structured, linear framework men often appreciate.
• Marc’s “Villain -> Victim -> Hero -> Guide” Framework (0:32:37):
  1. Villain: Men often enter therapy feeling like the “bad guy” (e.g., after a divorce, ultimatum).
  2. Victim: Therapy helps them understand why they acted out (childhood trauma, past hurts). This reduces shame. (Many therapies stop here).
  3. Hero: The crucial next step – “Now that you know this, what are you going to do about it?” This involves action outside the therapy room (e.g., difficult conversations, joining a community, getting in shape). Focus on tactical, practical steps.
  4. Guide: (Optional but powerful) Helping other men, mentoring, sponsoring – giving back based on their journey.
• Meaning Through Commitments (0:37:07): Help men find meaning not in grandiose, unattainable achievements, but in their commitments (to partner, children, community, home). This is where they practice discipline, consistency, dependability, and honesty.

(0:40:44) Specific Advice for Female Therapists Working with Male Clients:

• It can be harder for female therapists. Men might:
  • Make the therapist their “mom” (seeking pure nurturance without action).
  • Exhibit misogyny (not trusting a woman with their emotions, lying, flirting, holding back).
• Corrective Experience: Female therapists can provide this by:
  • Being okay with challenging and naming dynamics (e.g., misogyny, transference like motherly or sexual attraction) – without shaming.
  • “Calling a spade a spade.”
  • Giving “tough love.”
  • Doing their own work on countertransference (e.g., fear of male anger, ingrained people-pleasing). Remember, the therapist holds the power in the room.

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Connect & Learn More:

• Marc Azoulay & Men’s Therapy Online:
  • Website: www.menstherapy.online
  • Men’s Therapy Podcast: Search on your favorite podcast platform.
  • Services include: Online individual and group therapy (licensed in OR, UT, CA, NY, FL, CO), psychodrama retreats, backpacking/wellness retreats.
• Patrick Martin & The Mental Health Toolbox:
  • Subscribe on YouTube: @thementalhealthtoolbox
  • Website: https://thementalhealthtoolbox.com
  • Newsletter & Free Tools: http://eepurl.com/dPCwTf

What are your biggest takeaways from this discussion? Share your thoughts and questions in the comments below!

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*Some of the links found here are affiliate links: As an Associate I earn from qualifying purchases by way of commission at no additional cost to you. See full disclaimer here:

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This Episode Is Brought To You By:

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BIO: Marc Azoulay

Marc Azoulay LPC, LAC, CGP, ACS is the founder of Men’s Therapy Online, a community and healing hub for men who want to get back on their feet or take their lives to the next level. With the help of his team of licensed clinicians he provides ongoing men’s groups, individual counseling, and powerful wilderness retreats to his members. With a background in psychoanalysis, neuroscience, and Buddhism, Marc is able help men uncover and destroy the unconscious barriers that hold them back. His mission is to help men become the best versions of themselves and truly show up for their lives, relationships, and community.

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Learn More About Why Therapy Fails Men (And How to Fix It) – with Marc Azoulay

CONTACT AND SOCIALS:

Marc Azoulay & Men’s Therapy Online:

Website: www.menstherapy.online

Men’s Therapy Podcast: Search on your favorite podcast platform.

Services include: Online individual and group therapy (licensed in OR, UT, CA, NY, FL, CO), psychodrama retreats, backpacking/wellness retreats.

Patrick Martin & The Mental Health Toolbox:

Subscribe on YouTube: @thementalhealthtoolbox

Website: https://thementalhealthtoolbox.com

Newsletter & Free Tools: http://eepurl.com/dPCwTf

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Watch The Interview

If you liked this episode, be sure to check out my full playlist of interviews here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnPL9gahfhWatKmy2YSyU0jt20h_jrj3H

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Listen To The Interview

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–Gratitude Journal–

–Guided Meditations–

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*Some of the links are affiliate links: As an Associate I earn from qualifying purchases by way of commission at no additional cost to you.

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Mission Statement: To equip therapists with the tools, knowledge, and strategies they need to enhance their practice, boost their income, and ultimately, improve the lives of their clients. We achieve this through accessible, high-quality content, practical resources, and a supportive community.

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NEED CRISIS HELP? If you need immediate crisis help with your depression, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 or text “START” to 741-741

OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES: See International Suicide Hotlines

WHERE TO FIND MENTAL HEALTH HELP:
-NAMI Referral Helpline: 1-800-950-6264

-California’s Statewide Mental Health Helpline: 1-855-845-7415

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