In this enlightening episode of our podcast, we unravel the secrets to happiness and fulfillment with renowned thinker and designer, Ryan A. Bush. As the founder of Designing the Mind, Ryan has dedicated his life to expanding human potential and providing wisdom education. His bestselling books and life-changing programs have transformed countless lives, leading many to a new vision for psychological growth and self-mastery.
Today, we dive deep into Ryan’s latest work, “Become Who You Are: A New Theory of Self-Esteem, Human Greatness, and the Opposite of Depression”. This ambitious guide to the good life is the product of over a decade of research into the psychology and philosophy of well-being. It offers a groundbreaking new psychological theory, arguing that our happiness is determined not by external events, but by the admirability we observe in our own behaviors.
We’ll explore his journey from depression to flourishing and how this struggle led him to develop a new framework for decoding and directing our lives. We’ll discuss how his innovative approach integrates insights from Stoic philosophy, neuropsychology, evolutionary psychology, and psychotherapy.
Additionally, we’ll delve into how Ryan’s unique concept of ‘psychitecture’ – the conscious design of our own psychological software – can help us rewire our mental patterns and achieve the state of peak flourishing that ancient thinkers called ‘eudaimonia’.
Join us for an inspiring conversation packed with actionable insights that could change your perspective and your life. If you’re seeking greater understanding of your mind and the keys to sculpting it, this episode with Ryan A. Bush is not to be missed!
Table of Contents
In this episode, we explore:
-Why do our intuitions mislead us about our own happiness?
-What led Ryan A. Bush to seek a new theory of mental health?
-What are the misconceptions about “the good life.”
*Some of the links found here are affiliate links: As an Associate I earn from qualifying purchases by way of commission at no additional cost to you. See full disclaimer here:
BIO: Ryan A. Bush
Ryan A Bush is a thinker and designer focused on building better systems, better people, and a better future. As founder of Designing the Mind, Ryan’s central purpose is to provide wisdom education and expand human potential beyond the norm.
This journey has led him to write multiple bestselling books like Designing the Mind: The Principles of Psychitecture, build life-changing programs like The Anxiety Algorithm, and launch Mindform, the world’s first psychitecture collective and training platform. Through his books, programs, and community, he works to integrate the insights of ancient and modern thinkers to form a new vision for psychological growth and self-mastery.
https://designingthemind.org/philosophy/
Learn More About Ryan A. Bush and His Methods For How To Be Happy:
CONTACT AND SOCIALS:
-Website: https://designingthemind.org
–X
–GET THE BOOK: Become Who You Are: A New Theory of Self-Esteem, Human Greatness, and the Opposite of Depression 👉 https://amzn.to/4bFNDCh
Watch The Interview
If you liked this episode, be sure to check out my full playlist of interviews here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnPL9gahfhWatKmy2YSyU0jt20h_jrj3H
Listen To The Interview
*Some of the links are affiliate links: As an Associate I earn from qualifying purchases by way of commission at no additional cost to you.
Want to learn more? Check out my top picks for books on self-improvement and recovery HERE!
It is my mission to equip you with valuable and effective coping skills and clinical interventions, to improve your mood, be more productive and improve your quality of life, so you can do more, and worry less.
NEED CRISIS HELP? If you need immediate crisis help with your depression, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 or text “START” to 741-741
OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES: See International Suicide Hotlines
WHERE TO FIND MENTAL HEALTH HELP:
-NAMI Referral Helpline: 1-800-950-6264
-California’s Statewide Mental Health Helpline: 1-855-845-7415
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Transcript:
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Welcome Ryan to the Mental
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Health Toolbox podcast.
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Thank you so much for making
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time today to share your
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wisdom and help us unveil
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the secrets to happiness,
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which might be more present
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than we think they are.
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Thanks for having me, Patrick.
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My pleasure.
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Excited to be here.
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Yeah, thank you so much.
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We’re really excited about your book.
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I got a sneak peek of your
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new book coming out,
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Becoming Who You Are.
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I really appreciate that.
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In fact,
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I had a really hard time putting it down.
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It really resonates with me,
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given my background in sociology,
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and just really excited to
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discuss and chew on some of these topics
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these ideas around your
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theory of happiness and how
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we can access it.
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So maybe we could start off
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we want to share a little
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bit with our viewers or
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listeners about your background.
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What led you into this space?
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And yeah, go for it.
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Yeah,
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as a few things coming together for me,
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I think one is that when I was a teenager,
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I was very interested from
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an early age in my own mind and its own,
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its functionings and, you know,
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how to go in and actually
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change things in my mind
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and mental patterns.
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You know,
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I remember being pretty young and, and,
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uh,
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kind of not paying a lot of
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attention to the like
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social or physical world around me,
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but being very interested in saying, Oh,
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like something seemingly
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bad happened to me.
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How can I go into my brain
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and like change it around
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so that it produces a
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positive emotion instead.
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And so I, um,
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Yeah,
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I was kind of obsessed with this
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whole mental world and
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taking all these notes,
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thinking I was coming
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across them for the first time.
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And I ended up discovering
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philosophy and psychology,
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things like Stoicism and
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Buddhism and realizing
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there were people who had
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beat me to it by a couple thousand years.
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But yeah,
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it didn’t sort of stop me from
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continuing to research and
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develop these ideas until I
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had to start writing books about it.
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You know, I also went to school.
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I went to school for product design.
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It felt like as much as I
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was interested in psychology,
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I didn’t think academia was
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quite the right route for me.
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So I went to school for
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design and later started asking,
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what if there’s a way to combine
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my love for design with my
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love for philosophy and
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psychology in the mind,
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and hence Designing the Mind.
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That was my first book and
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also the name of my
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organization in general.
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And that’s led me to create
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a number of books and
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programs and products and a
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membership community all
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centered around what I call
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psychitecture or the
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process of designing and
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changing your mind.
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And eventually that led me
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to this newest book, Become Who You Are.
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Absolutely.
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And a great book it is.
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And I definitely can chew on philosophy.
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It’s one of those things, you know,
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I don’t think there’s
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anything new under the sun, as they say.
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You know, the good thing,
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and I say this as a
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therapist to clients all the time, I said,
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the beautiful thing is that
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human behavior hasn’t changed.
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And it won’t change.
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We are who we are.
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The human condition is what it is.
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our wiring and so forth.
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And so the good news is that
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a lot of the problems that
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we have from a mental health standpoint,
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developmental standpoint, life, stress,
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struggles, it’s not new.
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It’s just repackaged, you know,
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as society changes.
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And so the strategies that
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are pretty universal to a large extent,
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right?
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Yeah, yeah.
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It’s one of the reasons why
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reading like Marcus
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Aurelius is so wild today
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because he was talking
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about the same mind that we have.
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And so it’s speaking directly to us today.
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That’s one of the reasons I
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love practical philosophy,
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however ancient.
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Yes, absolutely.
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And so anytime we can find a
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way to package that and put
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it into a digestible way
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material content and find life application,
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I think is always the trick, right?
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And you’ve done an excellent
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job with that.
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So like I said, hence,
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I couldn’t put it down.
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So let’s talk a little bit about that.
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You know, when I think about philosophy,
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when I think about mental health,
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when I think about recovery,
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goals, right?
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One of the things that I get caught up in,
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as I’m thinking about
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personal development,
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is the misconceptions right
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what the pitfalls and you
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talk a little bit about
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that in your book what do
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you feel are some of the
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misconceptions and I know
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you you you focus on the
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phrase of the good life
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right we think about you
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know keeping up with the
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joneses or when I finally
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arrive I’ll have x y and z
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or you know when we
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envision the good life what
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are some of the
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misconceptions about that
0:05:02.870 –> 0:05:03.831
approach do you think
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Yeah, there are a lot of layers to this.
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And to help people sort of
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wrap their heads around it,
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I introduce sort of a
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three-dimensional framework
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to help people understand
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these different things that
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we mean when we say happiness.
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And so you can imagine that
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there’s a chessboard
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sitting in front of you,
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and there’s an x-axis and a y-axis,
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of course.
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So the left and right
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is pleasure and pain.
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So if you go further to the right,
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that means you’ve got more
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pleasure at that point in your life.
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Left is more discomfort, pain, suffering,
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right?
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And that’s, you know,
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one way of measuring happiness.
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And some people seem to
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navigate their lives
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exclusively on this level,
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just trying to avoid pain
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and discomfort and
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experience more pleasure, right?
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And I think most of us, though,
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learn pretty early on that
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well this doesn’t this
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doesn’t really work we have
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to be able to make
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sacrifices we have to be
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able to endure some
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discomfort if we want to
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achieve some long-term
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success and and so that
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brings us to the second
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dimension which is the
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y-axis kind of moving
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further away from you or
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closer to you on that
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chessboard and so this is
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loss and gain so
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This one seems a little bit
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more enlightened.
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We learn as adults, we can, you know,
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choose to forego the
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drunken party if we want to
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work on our research paper
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for more long-term success, right?
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And what I argue is between
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these two dimensions, basically,
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this is how we navigate our
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lives by default.
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We balance pleasure and gain,
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and we try to balance the
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two and try to achieve the
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best possible outcome of them.
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The problem with this is
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that even this sort of
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enlightened two-dimensional
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way of navigating our lives
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still doesn’t always map onto reality.
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It doesn’t always deliver.
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We’ll experience something
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that seems like it should
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be the best thing ever and
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it should make us very happy.
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Maybe win the lottery and we
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can spend all our new money
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on all the pleasures we
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could imagine and you would
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think that would make us as
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happy as possible.
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But if we look at the data, actually,
0:07:09.199 –> 0:07:10.560
lottery winners very
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quickly fall back to their
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previous levels of happiness.
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And we can see the same
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thing if we look at the
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opposite end of the spectrum.
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We look at people who lose
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their legs or lose their
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jobs or their marriages in some cases,
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and they end up saying, you know, either,
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oh, I got over that very quickly or,
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you know,
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it was the best thing that ever
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happened to me in some cases.
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And so clearly we’ve got an
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inadequate map that we’re navigating on.
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There’s something…
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Exactly.
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There’s a disconnect.
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And so to try to make this a
0:07:40.697 –> 0:07:41.838
little more clear to people
0:07:41.877 –> 0:07:43.319
and give us a better map,
0:07:43.858 –> 0:07:46.161
I’ve introduced a third dimension.
0:07:46.221 –> 0:07:47.721
So you can imagine turning
0:07:47.762 –> 0:07:48.882
this chessboard into a
0:07:49.043 –> 0:07:50.223
three-dimensional kind of
0:07:50.564 –> 0:07:52.084
topographical chessboard.
0:07:52.125 –> 0:07:53.906
So now we’ve got mountains and valleys,
0:07:54.365 –> 0:07:57.208
and we’ve got this third axis, the Z axis,
0:07:58.228 –> 0:07:59.189
where we can move up and
0:07:59.250 –> 0:08:00.670
down in these mountains and valleys.
0:08:01.230 –> 0:08:02.391
And I argue that this is the
0:08:02.471 –> 0:08:03.432
one we should actually be
0:08:03.473 –> 0:08:04.353
paying attention to.
0:08:04.473 –> 0:08:05.173
And it’s the one that’s
0:08:05.213 –> 0:08:06.454
hidden from most of us and
0:08:06.855 –> 0:08:08.755
not a big part of our culture right now,
0:08:09.216 –> 0:08:09.877
even though it’s been
0:08:09.916 –> 0:08:10.858
talked about through
0:08:11.278 –> 0:08:13.178
philosophical history and
0:08:13.238 –> 0:08:14.779
even in modern psychology.
0:08:14.839 –> 0:08:17.002
It’s just been kind of neglected.
0:08:17.541 –> 0:08:18.362
And on some level,
0:08:18.403 –> 0:08:19.504
I think we know it’s true,
0:08:19.564 –> 0:08:21.125
but we don’t all know we know it.
0:08:21.245 –> 0:08:21.464
Right.
0:08:22.264 –> 0:08:22.586
And so.
0:08:23.485 –> 0:08:24.807
The word that I use for this
0:08:25.148 –> 0:08:27.629
when introducing it first is admirability,
0:08:27.730 –> 0:08:28.529
because I think this
0:08:28.990 –> 0:08:29.971
connects pretty quickly.
0:08:30.031 –> 0:08:31.833
We want to admire ourselves.
0:08:31.872 –> 0:08:33.413
We want to get to a place in
0:08:33.474 –> 0:08:34.615
our lives where we’re
0:08:34.634 –> 0:08:35.836
taking the actions and
0:08:35.916 –> 0:08:37.437
exhibiting the traits that
0:08:37.476 –> 0:08:39.479
cause us to admire ourselves the most.
0:08:40.298 –> 0:08:41.220
This is how we move up
0:08:41.320 –> 0:08:43.442
higher in this Z axis and
0:08:43.522 –> 0:08:44.422
climb the mountains.
0:08:45.562 –> 0:08:46.744
But it’s also how we avoid
0:08:46.803 –> 0:08:48.365
the valleys and the pits of
0:08:48.445 –> 0:08:49.046
depression and
0:08:49.666 –> 0:08:51.347
If you look at depressed patients,
0:08:51.427 –> 0:08:52.730
they very often have an
0:08:52.970 –> 0:08:54.130
extremely negative view of
0:08:54.171 –> 0:08:55.631
themselves and their own
0:08:55.732 –> 0:08:56.712
strengths and skills.
0:08:57.374 –> 0:08:59.355
And I use the term virtue,
0:08:59.416 –> 0:09:00.937
which has a really rich,
0:09:01.677 –> 0:09:03.980
hidden philosophical background.
0:09:04.760 –> 0:09:05.981
but today it kind of comes
0:09:06.042 –> 0:09:08.004
across as preachy and kind
0:09:08.024 –> 0:09:09.764
of moral purity, that kind of thing.
0:09:10.264 –> 0:09:12.105
And so I try to get across, this is,
0:09:12.125 –> 0:09:14.548
it’s translated from the
0:09:14.607 –> 0:09:15.849
ancient Greek word arete,
0:09:15.889 –> 0:09:16.629
which sort of meant
0:09:16.788 –> 0:09:18.129
excellence in a lot of ways.
0:09:18.610 –> 0:09:19.451
And so really it’s about
0:09:19.510 –> 0:09:20.631
being excellent at the
0:09:20.692 –> 0:09:22.312
traits that we value.
0:09:22.493 –> 0:09:23.413
Some of those are moral,
0:09:23.453 –> 0:09:24.835
some of them not so much.
0:09:24.914 –> 0:09:26.255
It’s everything from courage
0:09:26.336 –> 0:09:28.596
to creativity to compassion.
0:09:29.238 –> 0:09:31.599
And what I argue is that our
0:09:31.639 –> 0:09:32.379
brains are sort of
0:09:32.460 –> 0:09:34.000
monitoring us all the time,
0:09:35.182 –> 0:09:36.562
And they’re regulating our
0:09:36.602 –> 0:09:37.644
moods according to the
0:09:37.703 –> 0:09:40.326
virtues that we see in our own behavior.
0:09:40.787 –> 0:09:42.368
And that’s the Z axis.
0:09:42.388 –> 0:09:43.448
That’s how we climb higher
0:09:43.509 –> 0:09:45.230
in actual deep well-being
0:09:45.269 –> 0:09:46.610
instead of the superficial
0:09:46.991 –> 0:09:48.232
sort of two-dimensional plane.
0:09:49.488 –> 0:09:51.208
Wow, that is excellent.
0:09:51.249 –> 0:09:52.950
Now, to be fair,
0:09:53.629 –> 0:09:54.730
I did thumb through your book.
0:09:54.791 –> 0:09:56.451
So I have a foundation.
0:09:56.471 –> 0:09:58.152
I actually was stewing on
0:09:58.172 –> 0:09:59.173
this as I went to sleep
0:09:59.212 –> 0:10:00.274
because it really resonated
0:10:00.293 –> 0:10:00.933
with me so much.
0:10:00.974 –> 0:10:01.634
And it makes sense.
0:10:01.693 –> 0:10:02.195
It clicks.
0:10:02.735 –> 0:10:04.755
But just to make sure that our listeners,
0:10:04.796 –> 0:10:07.197
our viewers are grasping
0:10:07.797 –> 0:10:09.378
what we just drove by, right?
0:10:09.899 –> 0:10:13.399
So we all live our life by
0:10:13.460 –> 0:10:15.260
the motivational triad, more or less,
0:10:15.321 –> 0:10:15.441
right?
0:10:15.461 –> 0:10:16.522
As we’ve heard it phrased, right?
0:10:16.542 –> 0:10:17.903
There’s pain, pleasure, and convenience.
0:10:18.822 –> 0:10:20.984
right obviously we want to
0:10:21.043 –> 0:10:22.225
avoid pain or we want to
0:10:22.264 –> 0:10:25.187
seek pleasure and ideally
0:10:25.226 –> 0:10:26.006
we’ll take the path of
0:10:26.027 –> 0:10:27.187
least resistance to those
0:10:27.227 –> 0:10:29.590
things right that’s pretty
0:10:29.610 –> 0:10:30.730
much what motivates us
0:10:30.789 –> 0:10:33.812
right um and if we have a
0:10:33.851 –> 0:10:34.773
hard time seeking the
0:10:34.832 –> 0:10:36.153
things that make us happy
0:10:36.214 –> 0:10:37.533
well with enough fire land
0:10:37.594 –> 0:10:39.294
or our bottom then we’ll
0:10:39.394 –> 0:10:40.296
we’ll get busy right
0:10:40.755 –> 0:10:42.277
avoiding the pain and this
0:10:42.596 –> 0:10:43.538
is kind of this constant
0:10:43.557 –> 0:10:44.918
negotiation right
0:10:45.818 –> 0:10:48.120
And then getting, you know,
0:10:48.139 –> 0:10:49.520
we are rather dichotomous, right?
0:10:49.600 –> 0:10:52.662
Good, bad, black, white, happy, sad.
0:10:53.241 –> 0:10:54.702
We tend to think about life that way,
0:10:54.962 –> 0:10:55.182
right?
0:10:56.482 –> 0:10:57.244
Or in the immediate.
0:10:58.403 –> 0:10:58.583
Yeah,
0:10:58.984 –> 0:11:00.445
the things that we think will make us
0:11:00.485 –> 0:11:02.566
happy, we tend to pursue those, right?
0:11:03.385 –> 0:11:06.567
Yeah, the mortgage, bills, you know,
0:11:06.606 –> 0:11:07.607
so on and so forth,
0:11:07.727 –> 0:11:10.828
and can deliver a very
0:11:10.889 –> 0:11:12.750
transactional lifestyle.
0:11:13.274 –> 0:11:14.294
But as you’ve mentioned,
0:11:14.315 –> 0:11:15.075
those things don’t always
0:11:15.134 –> 0:11:17.216
make us happy like we think they will.
0:11:17.537 –> 0:11:18.498
And so you gave the example
0:11:18.518 –> 0:11:19.619
of the lottery.
0:11:20.278 –> 0:11:21.059
And so what we’re saying is
0:11:21.120 –> 0:11:23.322
it’s not just a negotiation of the pain,
0:11:23.442 –> 0:11:26.264
pleasure, loss, and gain, the two axes.
0:11:27.065 –> 0:11:29.586
But there’s something else going on there.
0:11:31.293 –> 0:11:32.995
That Z-axis you talk about.
0:11:33.076 –> 0:11:35.599
Now, you classify that, well,
0:11:35.999 –> 0:11:36.519
you said some of the
0:11:36.539 –> 0:11:37.179
philosophers have
0:11:37.221 –> 0:11:38.361
classified that kind of
0:11:38.442 –> 0:11:40.384
mentality as seeking excellence.
0:11:40.985 –> 0:11:42.125
But can we talk a little bit
0:11:42.245 –> 0:11:43.748
more about the idea of
0:11:43.847 –> 0:11:46.831
excellence and what that means?
0:11:47.371 –> 0:11:48.993
I know you touched on the word virtue,
0:11:49.013 –> 0:11:49.433
right?
0:11:50.807 –> 0:11:51.168
Yeah.
0:11:51.428 –> 0:11:54.272
So I think first to your point,
0:11:54.432 –> 0:11:56.133
clearly we are, you know,
0:11:56.274 –> 0:11:57.634
naturally biologically
0:11:57.735 –> 0:11:59.476
driven by these simple
0:11:59.596 –> 0:12:00.977
pleasures and motivations
0:12:01.057 –> 0:12:02.219
and the avoidance of pain.
0:12:02.960 –> 0:12:04.522
But we’re also a little, you know,
0:12:04.542 –> 0:12:06.364
in some ways different from, you know,
0:12:06.403 –> 0:12:07.283
other animals and that we
0:12:07.303 –> 0:12:08.666
can sort of coordinate long
0:12:08.745 –> 0:12:10.447
term strategy for
0:12:10.508 –> 0:12:11.869
maximizing these pleasures.
0:12:12.408 –> 0:12:12.929
these things.
0:12:13.009 –> 0:12:15.292
And so I think in many cases,
0:12:16.432 –> 0:12:18.374
our desires for short-term
0:12:18.394 –> 0:12:19.094
pleasure can be
0:12:19.153 –> 0:12:21.216
distractions from the values.
0:12:21.937 –> 0:12:23.037
I say in my first book that
0:12:23.738 –> 0:12:25.038
desires are the screams you
0:12:25.078 –> 0:12:26.740
can’t ignore and values are
0:12:26.759 –> 0:12:27.721
the whisper that it’s
0:12:27.760 –> 0:12:28.881
sometimes hard to notice.
0:12:29.422 –> 0:12:31.082
And so I think it’s
0:12:31.182 –> 0:12:32.124
extremely important that we
0:12:32.163 –> 0:12:34.125
pay attention to these values,
0:12:34.166 –> 0:12:35.567
these things that we’re wired to
0:12:36.106 –> 0:12:37.326
admire and to pay attention
0:12:37.386 –> 0:12:39.748
to in others and also in ourselves.
0:12:40.187 –> 0:12:41.729
And that’s really what this
0:12:41.788 –> 0:12:42.589
virtue thing is.
0:12:42.769 –> 0:12:42.889
Now,
0:12:42.908 –> 0:12:44.990
I actually argue in part two of the
0:12:45.009 –> 0:12:46.350
book that there’s a good
0:12:46.390 –> 0:12:47.671
reason why humans have
0:12:47.711 –> 0:12:48.910
these virtues that we care
0:12:48.951 –> 0:12:50.371
so much about and that we
0:12:50.412 –> 0:12:51.192
admire in others.
0:12:51.932 –> 0:12:53.212
And this goes back to our
0:12:53.293 –> 0:12:54.472
sort of evolutionary
0:12:54.533 –> 0:12:55.913
environment and the social
0:12:55.974 –> 0:12:57.614
landscape that we sort of
0:12:57.673 –> 0:12:59.134
evolved to contend within.
0:12:59.794 –> 0:13:01.196
I think that the reason why
0:13:01.216 –> 0:13:02.236
a lot of these traits that
0:13:02.256 –> 0:13:03.879
we see in humans exclusively,
0:13:03.958 –> 0:13:06.240
like creative intelligence and generosity,
0:13:06.660 –> 0:13:08.042
the reasons why they exist
0:13:08.623 –> 0:13:09.803
is that kind of for the
0:13:09.844 –> 0:13:11.345
same reason that exotic
0:13:11.405 –> 0:13:12.907
birds exist with all their
0:13:13.246 –> 0:13:14.447
crazy colored feathers and
0:13:14.788 –> 0:13:15.809
songs and dances.
0:13:16.250 –> 0:13:16.409
Right.
0:13:16.509 –> 0:13:18.491
It’s kind of a it’s almost a mating dance.
0:13:18.552 –> 0:13:20.433
It’s a way of socially signaling.
0:13:21.173 –> 0:13:22.095
Here’s what I’m good at.
0:13:22.174 –> 0:13:23.155
Here’s why, you know,
0:13:23.176 –> 0:13:24.817
an indicator of my fitness,
0:13:25.259 –> 0:13:26.220
even though we’re not doing
0:13:26.259 –> 0:13:27.179
this consciously.
0:13:28.081 –> 0:13:29.763
This is how these things came about.
0:13:29.802 –> 0:13:30.984
And this is why we do these
0:13:31.043 –> 0:13:32.426
things that don’t seem to
0:13:32.446 –> 0:13:34.388
make sense from a survival perspective,
0:13:34.408 –> 0:13:36.210
like writing books or, you know,
0:13:36.250 –> 0:13:37.130
running marathons.
0:13:37.890 –> 0:13:39.393
These are things that came
0:13:39.472 –> 0:13:42.556
about as they were selected
0:13:42.615 –> 0:13:43.898
in our social environment.
0:13:44.378 –> 0:13:45.458
And so if that’s the case,
0:13:45.678 –> 0:13:46.460
it makes sense that we
0:13:46.480 –> 0:13:47.360
would have a part of our
0:13:47.421 –> 0:13:48.162
brain that’s sort of
0:13:48.562 –> 0:13:50.725
monitoring ourselves on these fronts,
0:13:51.144 –> 0:13:52.446
evaluating ourselves in the
0:13:52.486 –> 0:13:53.246
same way that we would
0:13:53.287 –> 0:13:54.388
evaluate other people.
0:13:54.969 –> 0:13:55.969
And so when we look at other
0:13:56.009 –> 0:13:56.950
people and we say, oh,
0:13:56.990 –> 0:13:58.950
that guy’s got a ton of courage,
0:13:58.990 –> 0:14:00.291
I really admire him or this
0:14:00.331 –> 0:14:02.032
person’s really kind and compassionate.
0:14:02.851 –> 0:14:03.111
You know,
0:14:03.331 –> 0:14:05.393
these are traits that have a have
0:14:05.472 –> 0:14:07.413
deep origins in our brains.
0:14:07.494 –> 0:14:07.673
Right.
0:14:07.714 –> 0:14:10.335
They clearly exist cross-culturally.
0:14:10.375 –> 0:14:11.315
They’ve been studied by
0:14:11.375 –> 0:14:12.634
people like Martin Seligman
0:14:13.275 –> 0:14:15.275
to exist even in indigenous
0:14:15.336 –> 0:14:16.256
tribes that have little
0:14:16.537 –> 0:14:19.018
connection to modern Western culture.
0:14:19.837 –> 0:14:22.000
And so so they have these
0:14:22.240 –> 0:14:23.400
deep origins in our brains,
0:14:23.441 –> 0:14:24.301
and I think they have a lot
0:14:24.321 –> 0:14:26.143
of power over our mood and
0:14:26.182 –> 0:14:27.783
our overall sense of deep
0:14:27.823 –> 0:14:29.284
well-being on a deeper
0:14:29.325 –> 0:14:31.547
level than just the momentary pleasure.
0:14:31.567 –> 0:14:34.028
And, you know,
0:14:34.068 –> 0:14:35.690
this kind of lines up with a
0:14:35.789 –> 0:14:37.130
lot of different research
0:14:37.150 –> 0:14:38.091
that I’ve done in several
0:14:38.131 –> 0:14:39.373
different disciplines,
0:14:39.432 –> 0:14:40.994
but it also lines up with my experience.
0:14:41.394 –> 0:14:42.575
experience in my own life
0:14:42.674 –> 0:14:43.615
when I look at the best
0:14:43.674 –> 0:14:45.797
times in my life I think oh
0:14:45.917 –> 0:14:47.057
those were the times when I
0:14:47.638 –> 0:14:48.898
admired myself the most
0:14:48.937 –> 0:14:49.859
when I was most proud of
0:14:49.899 –> 0:14:50.958
myself and had the most
0:14:51.178 –> 0:14:52.639
evidence of the things I
0:14:52.659 –> 0:14:54.441
was proud of right and the
0:14:54.500 –> 0:14:55.662
worst times in my life have
0:14:55.701 –> 0:14:56.562
been those where I really
0:14:56.621 –> 0:14:57.942
couldn’t see what it was
0:14:58.363 –> 0:14:59.563
that I liked about myself
0:14:59.604 –> 0:15:01.004
that I admired or that made
0:15:01.044 –> 0:15:02.505
me feel special and unique
0:15:03.145 –> 0:15:04.668
And so, you know,
0:15:04.687 –> 0:15:06.570
I can cover this from a few
0:15:06.629 –> 0:15:08.311
different angles in terms
0:15:08.350 –> 0:15:08.971
of the research.
0:15:09.032 –> 0:15:10.854
But, you know, long story short,
0:15:10.913 –> 0:15:12.414
I think this dimension of
0:15:12.475 –> 0:15:13.876
virtue really is sort of
0:15:14.236 –> 0:15:15.739
pulling the strings of our happiness,
0:15:15.839 –> 0:15:17.900
whether we’re conscious of it or not.
0:15:18.682 –> 0:15:18.822
Mm hmm.
0:15:19.898 –> 0:15:21.339
So just for those watching,
0:15:21.359 –> 0:15:22.559
because I’m not an artist,
0:15:22.600 –> 0:15:24.160
I’m not a designer like you, right?
0:15:26.001 –> 0:15:27.763
But I have a little blackboard on here.
0:15:27.783 –> 0:15:30.284
I’m just going to do a little graph here.
0:15:30.304 –> 0:15:31.065
So what we’re saying is that
0:15:31.085 –> 0:15:32.385
we have this axis, right?
0:15:33.486 –> 0:15:35.427
And you’re saying that we have gain,
0:15:35.768 –> 0:15:36.008
right?
0:15:36.489 –> 0:15:38.870
Loss on the y-axis.
0:15:38.929 –> 0:15:39.750
And we have pain.
0:15:41.649 –> 0:15:42.870
And then we have pleasure.
0:15:43.051 –> 0:15:43.211
Right.
0:15:43.250 –> 0:15:44.010
Something to this effect.
0:15:44.191 –> 0:15:44.390
Right.
0:15:44.991 –> 0:15:45.172
Yep.
0:15:45.331 –> 0:15:46.152
And it’s a spectrum.
0:15:47.373 –> 0:15:48.234
And this is the two
0:15:48.254 –> 0:15:49.094
dimensional way that we
0:15:49.134 –> 0:15:50.434
tend to view things in our life.
0:15:50.815 –> 0:15:51.014
Right.
0:15:51.034 –> 0:15:52.655
Mm hmm.
0:15:54.211 –> 0:15:55.091
But in the middle here,
0:15:55.753 –> 0:15:57.234
there’s something called the z-axis.
0:15:58.134 –> 0:15:59.174
And this is what gives us
0:15:59.235 –> 0:16:01.275
the three-dimensional perspective.
0:16:02.235 –> 0:16:03.397
Because if we’re always
0:16:03.437 –> 0:16:05.357
trying to negotiate the gain and loss,
0:16:05.398 –> 0:16:06.418
the pain and the pleasure,
0:16:07.019 –> 0:16:07.879
we’re sometimes going to
0:16:08.759 –> 0:16:10.600
fail to actually accurately
0:16:10.721 –> 0:16:12.081
predict what makes us happy.
0:16:12.101 –> 0:16:12.942
And this is what research
0:16:12.961 –> 0:16:15.243
has actually shown when we
0:16:15.263 –> 0:16:16.484
look at the research on happiness.
0:16:17.546 –> 0:16:17.905
Yeah.
0:16:17.946 –> 0:16:20.109
So I would just clarify that
0:16:20.589 –> 0:16:22.350
the Z-axis is kind of always,
0:16:22.870 –> 0:16:23.993
it’s always there even if
0:16:24.052 –> 0:16:25.114
we can’t see it.
0:16:25.173 –> 0:16:26.835
And so when we’re moving to
0:16:27.056 –> 0:16:30.658
the far right and the top corner of this,
0:16:30.818 –> 0:16:31.840
it’s very possible that
0:16:31.880 –> 0:16:34.003
there is a mountain there in the Z-axis.
0:16:34.082 –> 0:16:36.105
And so that changing our
0:16:36.144 –> 0:16:37.105
lives in a way that
0:16:38.086 –> 0:16:39.567
increases pleasure and gain
0:16:39.687 –> 0:16:41.008
actually would be good for
0:16:41.067 –> 0:16:42.368
the development of our virtue.
0:16:42.729 –> 0:16:43.908
But it’s also possible that
0:16:43.928 –> 0:16:45.629
the bottom left corner has
0:16:45.669 –> 0:16:46.509
a mountain and that we’re
0:16:46.549 –> 0:16:47.711
actually crawling into the
0:16:47.770 –> 0:16:48.791
valleys of virtue,
0:16:49.292 –> 0:16:50.351
even though it seems like
0:16:50.371 –> 0:16:51.572
we’re improving our life on
0:16:51.633 –> 0:16:52.753
paper in the top right.
0:16:53.212 –> 0:16:54.134
And so there’s this whole
0:16:54.193 –> 0:16:55.193
hidden landscape.
0:16:56.034 –> 0:16:57.816
And there will be times when, you know,
0:16:57.855 –> 0:16:59.395
maybe you do need to take
0:16:59.475 –> 0:17:01.017
that job with double the
0:17:01.057 –> 0:17:02.977
salary because it really will increase
0:17:03.118 –> 0:17:04.219
increase your ability to
0:17:04.259 –> 0:17:05.660
bring out those virtues,
0:17:06.101 –> 0:17:06.981
or there’ll be other times
0:17:07.001 –> 0:17:08.242
when you need to endure a
0:17:08.303 –> 0:17:10.065
period of great discomfort
0:17:10.125 –> 0:17:11.145
in order to bring them out.
0:17:11.945 –> 0:17:12.567
And so really,
0:17:12.807 –> 0:17:14.409
it’s all about learning to
0:17:14.489 –> 0:17:15.809
see in that third dimension
0:17:15.890 –> 0:17:16.951
and make your decisions
0:17:17.471 –> 0:17:19.472
really from the terms of
0:17:19.532 –> 0:17:20.554
that third dimension.
0:17:20.673 –> 0:17:22.336
And the other two dimensions
0:17:22.375 –> 0:17:24.597
are sort of just means to an end, right?
0:17:25.981 –> 0:17:26.501
Absolutely.
0:17:26.583 –> 0:17:28.864
So it’s not always about looking for the.
0:17:30.005 –> 0:17:31.026
Trying to trying to create a
0:17:31.086 –> 0:17:32.666
life of comfort, right?
0:17:33.288 –> 0:17:33.488
Yeah,
0:17:33.627 –> 0:17:35.368
because a life of comfort doesn’t
0:17:35.469 –> 0:17:36.430
always does not.
0:17:38.311 –> 0:17:39.432
Allow for the discipline,
0:17:39.472 –> 0:17:41.473
for the challenges by which
0:17:41.614 –> 0:17:42.714
are whatever we want to call it,
0:17:42.755 –> 0:17:46.057
character or character attributes, right?
0:17:46.077 –> 0:17:47.459
The things that gives give
0:17:47.538 –> 0:17:50.861
us depth and layer to our our personality,
0:17:50.902 –> 0:17:52.102
to our experience,
0:17:52.242 –> 0:17:54.023
our repertoire of skills, right?
0:17:55.595 –> 0:17:56.355
Those things which are
0:17:56.516 –> 0:17:58.178
intrinsically tied to our self-esteem,
0:17:59.137 –> 0:17:59.979
our sense of confidence,
0:18:00.019 –> 0:18:01.601
our sense of adequacy to
0:18:01.641 –> 0:18:02.662
handle things as they come,
0:18:02.761 –> 0:18:03.343
new challenges.
0:18:04.513 –> 0:18:04.834
Yeah,
0:18:05.294 –> 0:18:06.934
so a lot of these ancient
0:18:06.954 –> 0:18:07.976
philosophers have talked
0:18:08.036 –> 0:18:09.237
about the greatness of
0:18:09.297 –> 0:18:10.576
character as being the only
0:18:10.616 –> 0:18:11.417
thing that matters.
0:18:12.097 –> 0:18:12.878
The Stoics said,
0:18:13.058 –> 0:18:14.179
it can only harm me if it
0:18:14.199 –> 0:18:15.200
harms my character.
0:18:15.240 –> 0:18:16.079
And so I shouldn’t worry
0:18:16.119 –> 0:18:17.540
about what other people say
0:18:17.601 –> 0:18:18.842
about me or what happens
0:18:19.662 –> 0:18:20.823
outside of my control.
0:18:20.903 –> 0:18:22.104
If it doesn’t actually
0:18:22.163 –> 0:18:24.484
affect the actions and the
0:18:24.525 –> 0:18:26.246
virtues that I’m bringing out every day,
0:18:26.266 –> 0:18:27.727
then it doesn’t actually hurt me.
0:18:28.207 –> 0:18:29.688
And that’s a hard thing to get across.
0:18:29.748 –> 0:18:30.949
It’s very counterintuitive.
0:18:31.569 –> 0:18:32.990
But once it clicks in your mind,
0:18:33.030 –> 0:18:33.871
I think it changes your
0:18:33.891 –> 0:18:35.291
whole perspective on your life.
0:18:37.413 –> 0:18:37.933
Absolutely.
0:18:37.953 –> 0:18:38.193
And again,
0:18:38.213 –> 0:18:39.474
I don’t drive by that too quick.
0:18:39.515 –> 0:18:39.714
Right.
0:18:39.756 –> 0:18:41.176
Because there is this whether it’s
0:18:43.766 –> 0:18:45.847
Buddhism or Stoicism.
0:18:45.948 –> 0:18:48.970
There is this belief that’s taught like,
0:18:49.049 –> 0:18:50.811
okay, well, if we can kill the ego,
0:18:51.291 –> 0:18:51.571
you know,
0:18:52.252 –> 0:18:53.653
just kill the ego and stop
0:18:53.773 –> 0:18:55.015
attaching judgment and
0:18:55.095 –> 0:18:57.636
value to the things that happen to us.
0:18:57.696 –> 0:18:58.817
It’s not the things that happen,
0:18:58.857 –> 0:19:00.619
it’s how we interpret the things, right?
0:19:00.859 –> 0:19:02.701
And this, as a CBT therapist,
0:19:02.740 –> 0:19:04.041
this is very close to what
0:19:04.082 –> 0:19:05.343
I’ve been taught, what I practice,
0:19:05.363 –> 0:19:06.023
what I preach.
0:19:06.084 –> 0:19:08.826
But again, the way you’ve framed this
0:19:09.886 –> 0:19:11.648
causes me to second guess, okay,
0:19:11.689 –> 0:19:12.788
maybe we don’t kill the ego.
0:19:13.029 –> 0:19:16.231
Maybe it’s making the ego our friend,
0:19:16.692 –> 0:19:18.094
as you say, right?
0:19:18.114 –> 0:19:20.435
Well, yeah, it’s a couple things there.
0:19:20.455 –> 0:19:21.096
I mean, for one,
0:19:21.135 –> 0:19:22.597
I think you’ll really enjoy
0:19:22.657 –> 0:19:23.518
towards the end of the book,
0:19:23.577 –> 0:19:25.160
I talk in great depth about
0:19:25.220 –> 0:19:27.442
CBT and how it relates to all this.
0:19:28.461 –> 0:19:30.483
And I think there’s a very
0:19:30.503 –> 0:19:31.765
important story in all that.
0:19:31.865 –> 0:19:33.967
But I think you’re right there that
0:19:34.567 –> 0:19:34.768
You know,
0:19:34.788 –> 0:19:36.871
maybe this idea that we eliminate
0:19:36.911 –> 0:19:39.795
or transcend our egos is a bit misguided.
0:19:39.815 –> 0:19:42.338
I talked about this in chapter nine.
0:19:42.358 –> 0:19:43.140
You know,
0:19:43.160 –> 0:19:45.262
you’ve got these these gurus like
0:19:45.282 –> 0:19:48.807
Eckhart Tolle, for example, who say that,
0:19:49.127 –> 0:19:49.689
you know, they they.
0:19:50.690 –> 0:19:52.029
This guy was super depressed.
0:19:52.049 –> 0:19:52.851
He hated himself.
0:19:52.891 –> 0:19:53.931
He couldn’t live with himself.
0:19:54.351 –> 0:19:55.330
And then one day something
0:19:55.411 –> 0:19:56.971
clicked in his brain where he said, well,
0:19:57.112 –> 0:19:58.892
who is it that I can’t live
0:19:58.951 –> 0:20:00.272
with if I can’t live with myself?
0:20:00.353 –> 0:20:02.292
And he kind of just had this
0:20:02.353 –> 0:20:03.413
enlightenment experience
0:20:03.433 –> 0:20:04.894
where he had no self anymore.
0:20:05.354 –> 0:20:06.673
And he spent his days kind
0:20:06.713 –> 0:20:08.394
of living on benches and
0:20:08.634 –> 0:20:09.734
listening to birds chirp
0:20:09.775 –> 0:20:12.276
for months with no real identity.
0:20:12.836 –> 0:20:15.238
And I have sort of argued that, yeah,
0:20:15.278 –> 0:20:17.319
I have no doubt that having no ego,
0:20:17.559 –> 0:20:18.800
no sense of self would be
0:20:19.162 –> 0:20:20.163
much better than having
0:20:20.182 –> 0:20:22.964
this really negative self that you hate,
0:20:23.105 –> 0:20:23.325
right?
0:20:24.046 –> 0:20:25.067
And if you’re depressed and
0:20:25.267 –> 0:20:26.008
you’re living with these
0:20:26.067 –> 0:20:27.108
ruminations where you’re
0:20:27.128 –> 0:20:28.710
criticizing yourself constantly,
0:20:28.730 –> 0:20:31.211
it’d be much better to have
0:20:31.271 –> 0:20:32.393
no sense of self at all.
0:20:32.834 –> 0:20:34.654
But there’s a higher step than that too,
0:20:34.715 –> 0:20:36.217
which is to have a very strong
0:20:36.656 –> 0:20:38.137
positive and crucially
0:20:38.317 –> 0:20:39.558
accurate sense of self to
0:20:39.578 –> 0:20:40.160
where you can say,
0:20:40.200 –> 0:20:42.582
I’m genuinely proud of the person I am.
0:20:42.761 –> 0:20:44.682
And that’s no easy feat,
0:20:44.823 –> 0:20:45.663
but I think it’s a much
0:20:46.124 –> 0:20:47.305
better outcome than just
0:20:47.365 –> 0:20:48.986
having no sense of self.
0:20:49.185 –> 0:20:50.626
No sense of self is basically,
0:20:51.167 –> 0:20:53.690
I don’t have any traits,
0:20:53.730 –> 0:20:55.931
any virtues that I’m able
0:20:55.971 –> 0:20:57.913
to point to and be proud of
0:20:57.992 –> 0:20:59.953
and feel like happy to be
0:20:59.973 –> 0:21:00.875
the person that I am.
0:21:01.532 –> 0:21:03.134
I think, yeah,
0:21:03.433 –> 0:21:05.414
I think that’s the goal for
0:21:05.474 –> 0:21:07.355
some people of spiritual
0:21:07.375 –> 0:21:08.896
practice and mindfulness
0:21:08.936 –> 0:21:10.298
and also the effect that
0:21:10.337 –> 0:21:11.518
certain antidepressant
0:21:11.897 –> 0:21:13.459
treatments tend to have.
0:21:13.659 –> 0:21:15.519
And I think there are higher aims.
0:21:15.579 –> 0:21:16.760
I think what the ancient
0:21:17.181 –> 0:21:18.821
Greeks were aiming for,
0:21:18.882 –> 0:21:20.323
which was called eudaimonia,
0:21:20.343 –> 0:21:21.903
this kind of peak happiness
0:21:21.962 –> 0:21:23.084
of virtue and self-approval.
0:21:23.124 –> 0:21:23.963
I was wondering how you pronounce that.
0:21:23.984 –> 0:21:25.484
I was like, how do you pronounce this?
0:21:25.525 –> 0:21:25.965
Yeah, yeah.
0:21:26.125 –> 0:21:27.105
I say eudaimonia.
0:21:27.145 –> 0:21:28.106
There’s a few different ways.
0:21:28.126 –> 0:21:29.467
I appreciate that.
0:21:31.532 –> 0:21:33.173
So I think eudaimonia is a
0:21:33.213 –> 0:21:34.414
better aim than
0:21:34.595 –> 0:21:35.836
enlightenment in the sense
0:21:35.895 –> 0:21:38.357
of destroying this central
0:21:38.397 –> 0:21:39.198
part of your brain.
0:21:39.837 –> 0:21:40.939
And I’ve argued in this book
0:21:40.979 –> 0:21:42.119
that there actually is a
0:21:42.160 –> 0:21:43.740
very good evolutionary and
0:21:43.961 –> 0:21:45.102
even neuroscientific
0:21:45.541 –> 0:21:47.063
explanation for why our
0:21:47.103 –> 0:21:49.025
brains are so self-oriented.
0:21:49.164 –> 0:21:50.144
And it’s essentially the
0:21:50.184 –> 0:21:51.566
machine behind both
0:21:51.846 –> 0:21:53.207
unhappiness and happiness.
0:21:53.667 –> 0:21:54.387
And so when you take
0:21:54.468 –> 0:21:55.969
batteries out of that machine,
0:21:56.009 –> 0:21:56.489
it’s going to have
0:21:56.548 –> 0:21:58.611
implications on both ends of that scale.
0:21:58.996 –> 0:21:59.236
Hmm.
0:22:00.596 –> 0:22:03.518
Identity, you know, that’s a big one,
0:22:03.758 –> 0:22:04.338
because like,
0:22:05.118 –> 0:22:05.739
kind of sounds like what
0:22:05.778 –> 0:22:06.980
you’re saying is if nothing ventured,
0:22:07.019 –> 0:22:07.619
nothing gained.
0:22:09.181 –> 0:22:09.681
A little bit.
0:22:09.780 –> 0:22:11.221
Yeah, I think to some extent.
0:22:12.041 –> 0:22:12.561
Yeah.
0:22:14.619 –> 0:22:15.141
Yeah, I mean,
0:22:15.560 –> 0:22:16.721
certainly nothing venture
0:22:16.761 –> 0:22:18.022
that that sort of makes me
0:22:18.063 –> 0:22:18.982
think of idleness.
0:22:19.042 –> 0:22:19.903
And basically, you’re not,
0:22:20.223 –> 0:22:21.045
you’re not going out and
0:22:21.065 –> 0:22:22.726
doing anything that would
0:22:22.766 –> 0:22:24.166
cause you to feel proud of yourself.
0:22:24.326 –> 0:22:26.087
And so that is nothing venture.
0:22:26.268 –> 0:22:27.828
There’s also the other possibility,
0:22:27.848 –> 0:22:28.849
which is that you are
0:22:29.289 –> 0:22:31.231
demonstrating a lot of negative traits,
0:22:31.311 –> 0:22:33.212
or you could say vices in your behavior.
0:22:33.472 –> 0:22:35.954
You’re living a dishonest or antisocial,
0:22:36.015 –> 0:22:36.816
harmful life.
0:22:37.375 –> 0:22:39.897
And as a result, you despise yourself.
0:22:40.199 –> 0:22:42.200
You aren’t aligning with your own values.
0:22:42.320 –> 0:22:43.642
And in fact, you’re violating them.
0:22:44.442 –> 0:22:46.183
And so in some ways,
0:22:46.263 –> 0:22:49.385
it’s kind of a mechanistic
0:22:49.787 –> 0:22:51.969
explanation of karma or something.
0:22:52.128 –> 0:22:53.829
When you take actions that
0:22:53.849 –> 0:22:54.671
you’re not proud of,
0:22:54.711 –> 0:22:55.751
that you feel ashamed of,
0:22:56.092 –> 0:22:56.792
those have real
0:22:56.873 –> 0:22:58.354
psychological consequences
0:22:58.374 –> 0:22:59.494
because they move you down
0:22:59.615 –> 0:23:00.556
in that Z-axis.
0:23:01.786 –> 0:23:01.987
Wow,
0:23:02.106 –> 0:23:04.833
that is pretty profound when you frame
0:23:04.853 –> 0:23:06.156
it that way, right?
0:23:06.217 –> 0:23:08.521
It’s because we are our own
0:23:09.444 –> 0:23:10.006
biggest critic.
0:23:11.839 –> 0:23:12.820
And I talk about this in
0:23:12.861 –> 0:23:13.861
counseling with clients.
0:23:14.561 –> 0:23:15.521
I talk about the importance
0:23:15.582 –> 0:23:20.164
of living in alignment with your values.
0:23:21.506 –> 0:23:23.567
When we talk about that internal conflict,
0:23:23.606 –> 0:23:24.366
we’re talking about a
0:23:24.446 –> 0:23:25.188
lifestyle that’s
0:23:25.268 –> 0:23:26.808
incongruent with the things
0:23:26.868 –> 0:23:29.990
that we say are important to us.
0:23:31.592 –> 0:23:34.732
But how do we know if we’re incongruent?
0:23:35.374 –> 0:23:36.094
If we haven’t done the work
0:23:36.114 –> 0:23:37.134
to know what’s important to us?
0:23:38.799 –> 0:23:39.259
I agree.
0:23:39.280 –> 0:23:40.320
Think about that as opposed
0:23:40.361 –> 0:23:43.523
to just kind of plain whackable, you know,
0:23:44.404 –> 0:23:47.126
with our pain and pleasure instincts.
0:23:48.307 –> 0:23:50.148
Yeah, I think, you know,
0:23:50.189 –> 0:23:51.309
one of the most important
0:23:51.369 –> 0:23:52.810
exercises you can do is to
0:23:52.871 –> 0:23:54.593
write down the people you
0:23:54.633 –> 0:23:56.795
admire most in your life.
0:23:57.154 –> 0:23:59.237
Historical figures, you know,
0:23:59.457 –> 0:24:00.678
could be fictional characters.
0:24:01.117 –> 0:24:02.278
And you can do the opposite too.
0:24:02.578 –> 0:24:03.199
You can write down the
0:24:03.219 –> 0:24:04.240
people you have the least
0:24:04.420 –> 0:24:06.461
admiration for and write
0:24:06.500 –> 0:24:07.760
down the specific traits
0:24:07.820 –> 0:24:09.382
and actions that you admire
0:24:09.402 –> 0:24:10.182
or disapprove of.
0:24:10.823 –> 0:24:12.523
And when you go through this
0:24:12.584 –> 0:24:13.923
in a really comprehensive way,
0:24:14.023 –> 0:24:15.125
you’ll end up with a clear
0:24:15.204 –> 0:24:17.605
list of your strongest values,
0:24:17.645 –> 0:24:18.486
the things that are most
0:24:18.546 –> 0:24:19.146
important to you.
0:24:20.030 –> 0:24:20.912
the things that you admire
0:24:20.951 –> 0:24:21.992
most in others and hence
0:24:22.374 –> 0:24:23.776
would admire most in yourself.
0:24:24.215 –> 0:24:25.096
And this gives you a kind of
0:24:25.136 –> 0:24:27.079
blueprint for your own
0:24:27.400 –> 0:24:28.961
self-approval and your own
0:24:29.001 –> 0:24:29.722
deep happiness.
0:24:29.762 –> 0:24:31.525
You want to embody these
0:24:31.905 –> 0:24:34.127
traits in your own actions every day.
0:24:34.568 –> 0:24:35.750
So after you have that list,
0:24:35.789 –> 0:24:36.310
you want to start
0:24:36.711 –> 0:24:38.251
building kind of an activity
0:24:38.291 –> 0:24:39.872
schedule out of it and start saying,
0:24:40.211 –> 0:24:40.412
you know,
0:24:40.471 –> 0:24:41.932
what actions can I take or how
0:24:41.972 –> 0:24:43.992
can I shape the domains in
0:24:44.032 –> 0:24:46.233
my life to bring out more
0:24:46.273 –> 0:24:47.153
of these strengths and give
0:24:47.173 –> 0:24:48.134
me the opportunity to
0:24:48.273 –> 0:24:50.355
exercise them on a daily basis?
0:24:50.474 –> 0:24:52.394
You know, my work, my relationships,
0:24:52.775 –> 0:24:53.355
communities,
0:24:53.435 –> 0:24:55.736
what changes can I make so
0:24:55.756 –> 0:24:56.836
that I become more like
0:24:56.896 –> 0:24:58.196
that person that I admire
0:24:58.217 –> 0:24:59.356
and those people on that
0:24:59.436 –> 0:25:00.377
list that I wrote down?
0:25:00.397 –> 0:25:02.397
I think that’s the best
0:25:02.498 –> 0:25:03.999
exercise I can give for
0:25:04.199 –> 0:25:05.419
identifying those values.
0:25:06.703 –> 0:25:10.526
Wow, that’s really good advice.
0:25:10.546 –> 0:25:11.445
That’s a great tactic.
0:25:11.546 –> 0:25:14.666
So if we’re having trouble
0:25:14.707 –> 0:25:15.446
identifying what’s
0:25:15.487 –> 0:25:17.788
important to us in terms of values,
0:25:18.388 –> 0:25:19.409
the things we want to pursue,
0:25:19.429 –> 0:25:20.048
the things we want to
0:25:20.108 –> 0:25:21.329
improve upon in our lives,
0:25:21.410 –> 0:25:24.131
then looking at the things
0:25:24.151 –> 0:25:25.791
we tend to gravitate toward others,
0:25:25.832 –> 0:25:27.592
the things we appraise in other people,
0:25:27.872 –> 0:25:29.512
or even our judgment, right?
0:25:29.553 –> 0:25:30.093
Rather than looking at
0:25:30.133 –> 0:25:31.253
judgment as a bad thing.
0:25:32.255 –> 0:25:33.377
Our judgment is kind of a
0:25:33.498 –> 0:25:34.961
compass and also
0:25:35.001 –> 0:25:36.285
breadcrumbs to the things
0:25:36.325 –> 0:25:37.346
that we want to improve upon.
0:25:38.549 –> 0:25:39.410
Yeah, well put.
0:25:39.430 –> 0:25:40.711
I think it is a compass,
0:25:40.810 –> 0:25:42.611
and I don’t think we want to ignore it.
0:25:44.011 –> 0:25:45.132
But we do want to base it
0:25:45.211 –> 0:25:46.972
off of things that matter.
0:25:47.012 –> 0:25:47.732
I mean, values,
0:25:47.992 –> 0:25:49.074
the term is used in a lot
0:25:49.094 –> 0:25:49.874
of different ways.
0:25:50.273 –> 0:25:51.315
Sometimes people will say,
0:25:51.355 –> 0:25:53.375
do I value money or family more?
0:25:53.434 –> 0:25:54.615
Which is good,
0:25:54.655 –> 0:25:56.276
but that’s kind of more of a priority.
0:25:56.336 –> 0:25:59.277
These are traits that a
0:25:59.317 –> 0:26:00.557
person can have and can
0:26:00.617 –> 0:26:01.837
demonstrate in their lives.
0:26:02.298 –> 0:26:04.338
And so hitting a home run in
0:26:04.358 –> 0:26:05.960
a baseball game is not a value.
0:26:06.420 –> 0:26:08.002
But athleticism and
0:26:08.042 –> 0:26:09.566
discipline and all this,
0:26:09.606 –> 0:26:10.387
these are values.
0:26:11.009 –> 0:26:12.231
So it’s important to have a
0:26:12.291 –> 0:26:13.394
clear understanding on
0:26:13.473 –> 0:26:14.576
terms that are thrown
0:26:14.636 –> 0:26:15.679
around so much today.
0:26:17.750 –> 0:26:18.391
Very well said.
0:26:18.490 –> 0:26:21.492
So understanding how to
0:26:21.932 –> 0:26:23.213
identify our values through
0:26:23.374 –> 0:26:24.433
our admirations,
0:26:25.015 –> 0:26:26.115
which is a form of judgment,
0:26:26.154 –> 0:26:27.195
but not in the negative sense,
0:26:27.236 –> 0:26:28.836
but our admiration that the
0:26:28.876 –> 0:26:30.617
people we look up to, the role models,
0:26:30.678 –> 0:26:32.337
the people that inspire us, right?
0:26:32.377 –> 0:26:33.878
What is it about them that inspires us?
0:26:33.919 –> 0:26:35.259
What is it that we gravitate toward?
0:26:35.700 –> 0:26:36.721
Because there’s probably a
0:26:37.361 –> 0:26:38.862
yearning there to be more like that.
0:26:39.582 –> 0:26:40.782
for whatever reason because
0:26:40.843 –> 0:26:42.163
it’s maybe it’s important
0:26:42.183 –> 0:26:43.703
to us maybe it’s something
0:26:43.765 –> 0:26:45.746
we feel was a value that
0:26:45.786 –> 0:26:47.026
was important to people
0:26:47.066 –> 0:26:48.567
that love us or that raised
0:26:48.727 –> 0:26:49.968
us or for whatever reason
0:26:50.228 –> 0:26:50.888
right there’s something
0:26:50.949 –> 0:26:52.609
there and that’s not going
0:26:52.630 –> 0:26:53.190
to be the same for
0:26:53.329 –> 0:26:55.692
everybody which leads to
0:26:55.711 –> 0:26:58.292
the other issue right um
0:26:59.413 –> 0:27:00.054
when I’m talking about
0:27:01.375 –> 0:27:03.096
congruence with clients as
0:27:03.115 –> 0:27:04.977
a as a counselor oftentimes
0:27:04.997 –> 0:27:06.698
we talk about the challenge
0:27:06.738 –> 0:27:07.699
of competing goals
0:27:09.131 –> 0:27:09.270
Now,
0:27:09.310 –> 0:27:11.492
you phrased it in a way that kind of
0:27:12.153 –> 0:27:13.694
spun my head around when I
0:27:13.734 –> 0:27:15.175
was reading that I hadn’t
0:27:15.195 –> 0:27:16.196
really thought about phrasing it.
0:27:17.136 –> 0:27:18.397
And that’s when you’re talking about your,
0:27:19.138 –> 0:27:20.279
you know, the virtue game,
0:27:20.640 –> 0:27:21.641
the virtue spectrum.
0:27:23.261 –> 0:27:23.542
Right.
0:27:23.663 –> 0:27:25.403
Because I think about I was, you know,
0:27:25.763 –> 0:27:26.984
thinking about competing goals.
0:27:27.425 –> 0:27:27.605
Right.
0:27:27.625 –> 0:27:28.926
But it’s more than competing goals.
0:27:30.827 –> 0:27:30.968
Yeah,
0:27:30.988 –> 0:27:32.088
there’s a lot of things demanding our
0:27:32.108 –> 0:27:34.530
attention, but it’s competing values.
0:27:35.852 –> 0:27:36.112
Yeah.
0:27:36.573 –> 0:27:37.794
And virtues, I should say.
0:27:39.559 –> 0:27:40.361
Virtues, values,
0:27:40.401 –> 0:27:42.222
they go very closely together,
0:27:42.363 –> 0:27:43.644
but I think you’re right.
0:27:43.663 –> 0:27:44.846
It is a challenge.
0:27:44.905 –> 0:27:45.145
I mean,
0:27:45.365 –> 0:27:47.288
you can’t possibly have every
0:27:47.367 –> 0:27:49.069
virtue at all times in your life.
0:27:49.510 –> 0:27:50.310
You are going to have to
0:27:50.351 –> 0:27:51.553
make trade-offs and
0:27:51.593 –> 0:27:52.894
balances and decisions.
0:27:52.993 –> 0:27:55.217
And so what do you prioritize?
0:27:55.737 –> 0:27:57.017
I think a lot of that comes
0:27:57.076 –> 0:28:00.397
down to what is the deepest
0:28:00.458 –> 0:28:01.617
part of your identity?
0:28:01.678 –> 0:28:03.438
What do you identify most closely with?
0:28:04.519 –> 0:28:05.439
What do you admire most?
0:28:05.519 –> 0:28:06.439
What are you best at?
0:28:06.818 –> 0:28:08.138
I think doubling down on our
0:28:08.239 –> 0:28:09.759
strengths already is very
0:28:09.900 –> 0:28:11.440
often a better approach
0:28:11.500 –> 0:28:13.500
than focusing on mitigating
0:28:13.559 –> 0:28:14.240
our weaknesses.
0:28:14.721 –> 0:28:16.921
And so it is a kind of game
0:28:17.361 –> 0:28:19.221
of resource allocation.
0:28:19.642 –> 0:28:21.561
Sometimes I call it a virtue portfolio.
0:28:22.082 –> 0:28:22.864
where you’re saying, you know,
0:28:22.903 –> 0:28:24.547
these are my top sort of
0:28:24.807 –> 0:28:26.791
investments from a virtue standpoint.
0:28:27.353 –> 0:28:29.798
And when that full portfolio goes down,
0:28:29.837 –> 0:28:32.202
you got a market crash in your identity,
0:28:32.262 –> 0:28:32.442
right?
0:28:32.482 –> 0:28:32.623
You’re
0:28:33.450 –> 0:28:34.549
moving toward depression.
0:28:34.589 –> 0:28:36.550
When that full portfolio goes up,
0:28:36.611 –> 0:28:37.911
you’re moving up in that
0:28:37.971 –> 0:28:40.031
Z-axis towards deeper well-being.
0:28:40.612 –> 0:28:41.992
And, you know, individually,
0:28:42.353 –> 0:28:44.034
those traits will find more
0:28:44.153 –> 0:28:45.354
or less expression in your
0:28:45.394 –> 0:28:47.575
life based on how you’re living it.
0:28:47.714 –> 0:28:48.755
And so you do have to make
0:28:49.115 –> 0:28:49.875
those decisions.
0:28:49.934 –> 0:28:51.695
What’s the low-hanging fruit?
0:28:51.756 –> 0:28:54.356
What’s the, you know, uphill battles?
0:28:54.457 –> 0:28:56.417
Where is my effort going to
0:28:56.478 –> 0:28:58.798
lead to the most increase in virtue?
0:28:59.198 –> 0:29:00.318
And these are the kinds of questions I’m
0:29:01.288 –> 0:29:02.390
asking when I’m navigating
0:29:02.430 –> 0:29:03.711
my life every day now
0:29:03.730 –> 0:29:05.292
because I’ve I’ve learned
0:29:05.353 –> 0:29:06.453
the importance of thinking
0:29:06.473 –> 0:29:09.256
in these terms it is a
0:29:09.596 –> 0:29:11.498
thought process it is a way
0:29:11.538 –> 0:29:13.480
of thinking about the self
0:29:14.401 –> 0:29:17.143
about how we do life right
0:29:18.023 –> 0:29:19.184
rather than just a linear
0:29:19.204 –> 0:29:21.406
to-do list it’s why are we
0:29:21.446 –> 0:29:22.307
doing what we’re doing
0:29:22.853 –> 0:29:24.233
And being realistic with ourselves.
0:29:25.375 –> 0:29:26.315
We would all like to think
0:29:26.355 –> 0:29:27.895
we have an infinite amount
0:29:27.935 –> 0:29:31.778
of time to pursue the
0:29:31.817 –> 0:29:33.618
things that are important to us.
0:29:35.619 –> 0:29:36.461
But we don’t.
0:29:38.049 –> 0:29:39.932
At best, we have 80 years at best we have,
0:29:40.113 –> 0:29:40.834
I’m sorry, it’s bleak.
0:29:40.874 –> 0:29:43.016
But you know, we have like, you know,
0:29:43.016 –> 0:29:43.977
4050 years of our prime,
0:29:44.738 –> 0:29:46.539
to really hone in on those, as you say,
0:29:46.559 –> 0:29:47.181
to double down.
0:29:48.383 –> 0:29:48.542
Yeah,
0:29:48.603 –> 0:29:51.486
on the things that mean something to us.
0:29:52.166 –> 0:29:53.608
And we’re talking about meaningful goals,
0:29:53.669 –> 0:29:54.369
what we’re really talking
0:29:54.390 –> 0:29:56.011
about is goals that are backed by values.
0:29:57.414 –> 0:29:58.916
Yes, absolutely.
0:29:59.416 –> 0:30:00.258
Yeah,
0:30:00.637 –> 0:30:02.240
I think it is a good thing to remind
0:30:02.259 –> 0:30:03.861
yourself of your finite
0:30:03.921 –> 0:30:04.622
time in your life.
0:30:04.821 –> 0:30:06.844
I do it on a regular basis.
0:30:07.265 –> 0:30:09.086
It changes things when you realize that.
0:30:09.767 –> 0:30:11.288
And I think one of them is…
0:30:13.109 –> 0:30:14.630
You can’t spend too much of
0:30:14.671 –> 0:30:15.810
your life pursuing things
0:30:15.851 –> 0:30:16.851
that you’re not even going
0:30:16.871 –> 0:30:18.351
to be happy with once you get there.
0:30:18.571 –> 0:30:19.672
And I think chances are
0:30:19.731 –> 0:30:20.991
everyone listening has some
0:30:21.051 –> 0:30:22.413
things in their life that
0:30:22.452 –> 0:30:24.012
they’re pursuing that on
0:30:24.053 –> 0:30:25.173
some level they kind of know,
0:30:25.252 –> 0:30:26.153
even after I get this,
0:30:26.193 –> 0:30:27.253
I’m still not going to feel
0:30:27.273 –> 0:30:28.554
that satisfied.
0:30:28.594 –> 0:30:29.875
I’m just going to want the next thing.
0:30:30.315 –> 0:30:30.434
Well,
0:30:30.454 –> 0:30:32.095
these are potentially distractions
0:30:32.154 –> 0:30:33.134
from what you actually need
0:30:33.315 –> 0:30:34.276
to be doing in your life.
0:30:34.736 –> 0:30:34.935
Yeah.
0:30:35.825 –> 0:30:37.926
Actually adopting a good map
0:30:38.107 –> 0:30:38.989
and really taking it
0:30:39.048 –> 0:30:40.369
seriously is one of the
0:30:40.390 –> 0:30:42.491
best ways to make the most
0:30:42.531 –> 0:30:44.294
of this limited time that we all have.
0:30:44.775 –> 0:30:45.756
That’s challenging, too.
0:30:46.376 –> 0:30:47.218
And that’s a great point.
0:30:48.239 –> 0:30:49.319
We’re at that time of year again,
0:30:49.339 –> 0:30:50.441
depending on what time this
0:30:50.480 –> 0:30:51.942
posts and everybody’s listening to it.
0:30:51.982 –> 0:30:53.064
But right now it’s December
0:30:53.364 –> 0:30:54.345
11th that we’re recording this.
0:30:55.405 –> 0:30:56.527
New Year’s around the corner.
0:30:56.567 –> 0:30:57.847
I don’t know where this year went.
0:30:57.867 –> 0:30:58.647
But I say that every year,
0:30:58.788 –> 0:31:00.449
this year feels especially fast.
0:31:01.269 –> 0:31:01.430
Um,
0:31:01.509 –> 0:31:03.171
maybe it’s because the pandemic just
0:31:03.211 –> 0:31:04.050
kind of messed us all up.
0:31:04.211 –> 0:31:05.852
But as I was sitting down
0:31:05.892 –> 0:31:07.472
yesterday with a blank sheet of paper,
0:31:07.913 –> 0:31:10.394
and I was trying to just do
0:31:10.434 –> 0:31:12.076
my diligence and plotting out my goals,
0:31:12.375 –> 0:31:12.996
right for the year,
0:31:13.056 –> 0:31:14.656
what’s important to me in life domains,
0:31:14.737 –> 0:31:18.259
right, family, health, work, business,
0:31:19.019 –> 0:31:19.359
so forth.
0:31:20.359 –> 0:31:21.579
And I had, you know,
0:31:21.641 –> 0:31:23.201
Monday through Sunday at the top.
0:31:23.780 –> 0:31:26.241
And I was thinking to myself,
0:31:26.362 –> 0:31:29.083
where’s the white space to
0:31:29.123 –> 0:31:30.163
focus on these things?
0:31:30.343 –> 0:31:32.784
How do I assign them my goals,
0:31:33.084 –> 0:31:34.884
a behavior and that behavior to a time,
0:31:35.865 –> 0:31:36.904
something actionable,
0:31:37.144 –> 0:31:37.925
right on my calendar,
0:31:37.945 –> 0:31:38.846
because it’s not enough to
0:31:39.546 –> 0:31:40.326
value these things,
0:31:40.346 –> 0:31:41.307
we have to find a way to
0:31:41.747 –> 0:31:43.247
operationalize them to implement,
0:31:43.607 –> 0:31:44.208
as you say, yeah,
0:31:44.228 –> 0:31:44.928
right in your in your book.
0:31:47.025 –> 0:31:47.684
That’s challenging,
0:31:48.326 –> 0:31:50.047
depending on what we’re
0:31:50.067 –> 0:31:51.748
working with in the white space.
0:31:52.048 –> 0:31:54.769
And that’s why, as you say,
0:31:54.788 –> 0:31:55.890
it’s a thought process.
0:31:56.309 –> 0:31:57.711
I think that’s where the work is.
0:31:58.030 –> 0:31:59.332
It’s asking ourselves,
0:31:59.711 –> 0:32:00.791
why am I doing what I’m doing?
0:32:00.852 –> 0:32:01.593
How am I doing it?
0:32:02.472 –> 0:32:04.134
And am I doing it well,
0:32:04.614 –> 0:32:05.994
in a sense that makes sense?
0:32:06.174 –> 0:32:08.175
And I know there’s other
0:32:08.256 –> 0:32:09.376
theories around this, like,
0:32:11.416 –> 0:32:12.576
the 80, 20, you know,
0:32:12.596 –> 0:32:14.617
what are the 80% of the 20%
0:32:14.617 –> 0:32:15.557
of the things that give us
0:32:15.577 –> 0:32:17.218
a percent of the results, right?
0:32:17.298 –> 0:32:18.179
And our actions.
0:32:18.239 –> 0:32:20.019
And if we can apply that to
0:32:20.058 –> 0:32:21.598
something like our values, you know,
0:32:22.019 –> 0:32:22.559
where are we getting the
0:32:22.579 –> 0:32:25.480
most bang for our buck versus, you know,
0:32:25.980 –> 0:32:26.340
that’s cool.
0:32:26.361 –> 0:32:28.961
That’s a new, uh, Apple thing.
0:32:29.820 –> 0:32:31.102
Um, for those that are watching, you know,
0:32:31.201 –> 0:32:32.461
Apple rolled out a thing on their,
0:32:33.221 –> 0:32:33.761
their software.
0:32:33.801 –> 0:32:34.622
If I give a thumbs up,
0:32:34.642 –> 0:32:36.323
then a bunch of thumbs go on the screen.
0:32:36.343 –> 0:32:37.383
I think if I make peace
0:32:37.403 –> 0:32:38.643
signs and I get balloons, right.
0:32:39.384 –> 0:32:39.703
I don’t know.
0:32:39.903 –> 0:32:41.044
I think you have to hold it for a second.
0:32:42.136 –> 0:32:42.636
Ah, there it is.
0:32:42.957 –> 0:32:45.077
All right.
0:32:45.219 –> 0:32:46.038
Nice.
0:32:46.058 –> 0:32:46.479
Okay, Apple.
0:32:48.940 –> 0:32:50.361
But yeah, that whole concept, right,
0:32:50.480 –> 0:32:52.481
of finding a way to
0:32:52.622 –> 0:32:53.662
operationalize our goals.
0:32:53.682 –> 0:32:54.202
And I think that’s where
0:32:54.242 –> 0:32:56.483
most people lose their
0:32:56.503 –> 0:32:57.263
motivation or get
0:32:57.324 –> 0:32:58.984
frustrated is they try and
0:32:59.005 –> 0:32:59.724
make sense of it,
0:32:59.765 –> 0:33:01.546
but they’re like right
0:33:01.586 –> 0:33:02.787
there within striking distance,
0:33:02.807 –> 0:33:05.028
but it doesn’t stick
0:33:05.107 –> 0:33:07.709
because there’s a
0:33:07.749 –> 0:33:09.230
disconnect sometimes if we’re not…
0:33:10.369 –> 0:33:11.750
discipline in the way that we think about.
0:33:11.770 –> 0:33:12.471
And it’s not easy.
0:33:12.672 –> 0:33:13.333
I don’t you know,
0:33:13.692 –> 0:33:15.594
I like to think I do a
0:33:15.653 –> 0:33:17.215
pretty good job in this department,
0:33:17.236 –> 0:33:18.016
but it’s challenging.
0:33:18.115 –> 0:33:19.417
Even me, I was like scratch my head.
0:33:19.438 –> 0:33:19.958
I was like, man,
0:33:19.978 –> 0:33:22.720
how am I going to make time to exercise?
0:33:22.740 –> 0:33:23.901
Because that’s a value of mine.
0:33:23.921 –> 0:33:26.262
And, you know,
0:33:26.683 –> 0:33:29.586
edit this podcast and do my
0:33:29.625 –> 0:33:32.228
nine to five and spend time with my kids.
0:33:32.468 –> 0:33:32.848
And, you know,
0:33:32.929 –> 0:33:33.769
and you start looking at the
0:33:33.788 –> 0:33:34.349
calendar like, well,
0:33:34.369 –> 0:33:35.371
I could just sleep two hours.
0:33:35.431 –> 0:33:36.531
You know, that’s not good.
0:33:36.832 –> 0:33:38.692
That goes against my value of health.
0:33:38.732 –> 0:33:38.854
Right.
0:33:39.773 –> 0:33:41.776
Sometimes you have these competing values,
0:33:41.855 –> 0:33:42.296
as you say.
0:33:42.316 –> 0:33:46.940
Figuring out which season of
0:33:47.019 –> 0:33:48.040
life is going to give you
0:33:48.060 –> 0:33:49.102
the most bang for your buck.
0:33:50.663 –> 0:33:51.022
Agreed.
0:33:51.042 –> 0:33:51.903
I will say,
0:33:51.923 –> 0:33:54.685
if you are having trouble
0:33:55.445 –> 0:33:56.807
eliminating one of your
0:33:56.867 –> 0:33:58.148
existing domains that’s
0:33:58.189 –> 0:33:58.909
bringing you a lot of
0:33:59.249 –> 0:34:00.750
satisfaction and you feel
0:34:00.770 –> 0:34:01.451
like you’re bringing out
0:34:01.490 –> 0:34:02.612
your personal virtues
0:34:02.652 –> 0:34:04.432
through them and you’re
0:34:04.492 –> 0:34:07.075
finding it hard to make time for more,
0:34:07.796 –> 0:34:09.297
You know, you’re doing pretty good,
0:34:09.358 –> 0:34:09.998
chances are.
0:34:10.038 –> 0:34:13.121
I mean, it’s different from, you know,
0:34:13.141 –> 0:34:14.103
I’m busy with a bunch of
0:34:14.143 –> 0:34:15.804
things that don’t bring out my strengths,
0:34:15.844 –> 0:34:18.146
that don’t really feel meaningful to me.
0:34:18.768 –> 0:34:20.148
In that case, you know,
0:34:20.630 –> 0:34:22.512
you need to make some big changes.
0:34:22.532 –> 0:34:23.693
You need to eliminate some
0:34:23.753 –> 0:34:24.853
things that aren’t really
0:34:25.434 –> 0:34:27.376
delivering and potentially
0:34:27.416 –> 0:34:28.737
find some creative ways to…
0:34:29.739 –> 0:34:29.978
you know,
0:34:30.018 –> 0:34:31.980
check the same boxes through
0:34:32.280 –> 0:34:33.940
areas that really would be
0:34:34.001 –> 0:34:35.481
satisfying in a deeper sense.
0:34:35.942 –> 0:34:38.302
You know, people will object, you know,
0:34:38.342 –> 0:34:39.083
I have to make money,
0:34:39.103 –> 0:34:40.003
I have to pay the bills.
0:34:40.643 –> 0:34:43.684
And so that’s a very valid point.
0:34:43.744 –> 0:34:44.324
But also,
0:34:44.804 –> 0:34:46.166
there are probably ways that you
0:34:46.206 –> 0:34:47.106
could pay the bills that
0:34:47.146 –> 0:34:48.646
would actually bring out
0:34:48.666 –> 0:34:49.547
your greatest strengths.
0:34:50.007 –> 0:34:51.128
If you’re currently working
0:34:52.298 –> 0:34:54.302
a really repetitive job, for example,
0:34:54.362 –> 0:34:55.402
that you don’t feel like is
0:34:55.443 –> 0:34:57.144
really connected to who you
0:34:57.244 –> 0:34:58.126
are and what you’re good at.
0:34:59.367 –> 0:35:00.568
It’s time to be planning out
0:35:00.648 –> 0:35:02.030
your pivot so that you can
0:35:02.050 –> 0:35:03.733
do all those things.
0:35:03.753 –> 0:35:04.954
You can pay the bills,
0:35:05.014 –> 0:35:06.675
but you can also do it in a
0:35:06.735 –> 0:35:08.579
way that actually utilizes your skills
0:35:08.938 –> 0:35:09.980
creativity or your
0:35:10.059 –> 0:35:11.300
generosity or whatever it
0:35:11.460 –> 0:35:12.541
is that you’re best at and
0:35:12.581 –> 0:35:13.621
that you admire most.
0:35:14.561 –> 0:35:15.983
And so very often there are
0:35:16.043 –> 0:35:18.704
ways that we kind of limit
0:35:18.724 –> 0:35:20.025
ourselves when we’re thinking it out.
0:35:20.085 –> 0:35:21.327
We say it’s not realistic,
0:35:21.387 –> 0:35:22.887
but if you have something
0:35:22.907 –> 0:35:23.788
you really believe in,
0:35:24.148 –> 0:35:26.650
you can find funding for a big project,
0:35:26.710 –> 0:35:26.889
right?
0:35:27.130 –> 0:35:29.130
There are creative options
0:35:29.190 –> 0:35:29.831
for these things.
0:35:30.192 –> 0:35:31.233
You just need to be willing
0:35:31.273 –> 0:35:33.054
to think bigger in some cases.
0:35:33.373 –> 0:35:34.534
Outside the box, right?
0:35:35.074 –> 0:35:35.394
Necessarily.
0:35:35.434 –> 0:35:35.914
Exactly.
0:35:36.094 –> 0:35:36.335
Yeah.
0:35:36.356 –> 0:35:37.456
I mean, what I did here when I…
0:35:39.257 –> 0:35:41.898
you know, left my job where I was,
0:35:42.179 –> 0:35:43.059
you know, it was comfortable.
0:35:43.139 –> 0:35:44.340
It was working well.
0:35:44.900 –> 0:35:46.581
I went part-time in order to
0:35:46.621 –> 0:35:47.702
write this book because I
0:35:47.742 –> 0:35:49.384
wanted to build a kind of
0:35:49.463 –> 0:35:50.643
vessel for my strengths.
0:35:50.764 –> 0:35:52.565
I figured out that I could combine the,
0:35:52.985 –> 0:35:53.226
you know,
0:35:53.306 –> 0:35:54.487
eight different things that I’m
0:35:54.527 –> 0:35:56.527
best at into one place and
0:35:56.547 –> 0:35:57.969
that that would give me a
0:35:58.009 –> 0:35:59.349
better opportunity to
0:35:59.550 –> 0:36:00.851
achieve this virtue
0:36:00.891 –> 0:36:02.311
realization than anything
0:36:02.371 –> 0:36:03.831
else in my life really had.
0:36:03.911 –> 0:36:05.152
And that’s what Designing
0:36:05.172 –> 0:36:06.213
the Mind came out of for me.
0:36:07.992 –> 0:36:09.713
That is gold.
0:36:11.795 –> 0:36:13.038
And I think that might be the secret.
0:36:14.418 –> 0:36:14.699
You know,
0:36:14.820 –> 0:36:16.422
and when I’m again working with clients,
0:36:16.782 –> 0:36:16.961
you know,
0:36:16.981 –> 0:36:17.643
when you’re when you’re a
0:36:17.663 –> 0:36:18.563
therapist for all those
0:36:18.583 –> 0:36:19.885
therapists watching and listening,
0:36:19.945 –> 0:36:20.867
which make up the probably
0:36:20.887 –> 0:36:21.807
the majority of my audience.
0:36:24.364 –> 0:36:25.505
you’re doing a progress note
0:36:25.545 –> 0:36:26.585
right that always asks you
0:36:26.626 –> 0:36:28.967
for the the goal right so
0:36:29.007 –> 0:36:30.327
this is session yada yada
0:36:30.347 –> 0:36:31.909
this is the problem when
0:36:31.929 –> 0:36:32.909
you’re working with clients
0:36:32.969 –> 0:36:34.951
and the goal right is
0:36:35.090 –> 0:36:35.791
what’s the goal of this
0:36:35.811 –> 0:36:37.313
session and I would say
0:36:37.373 –> 0:36:38.614
these days nine out of ten
0:36:38.673 –> 0:36:40.135
times my goal has always
0:36:41.074 –> 0:36:42.315
seems to revolve around
0:36:42.376 –> 0:36:44.677
increasing autonomy but
0:36:44.697 –> 0:36:46.239
what I really mean is increasing
0:36:49.284 –> 0:36:50.686
The conscious behavior
0:36:50.865 –> 0:36:52.007
around living a life
0:36:52.067 –> 0:36:53.047
according to values and
0:36:53.088 –> 0:36:54.028
finding a way to meet your
0:36:54.128 –> 0:36:55.871
needs in such a way that
0:36:55.891 –> 0:36:56.911
you’re scratching that itch.
0:36:57.693 –> 0:36:58.693
Yeah, yeah.
0:36:59.054 –> 0:37:00.076
And that’s what you’re talking about.
0:37:00.275 –> 0:37:02.077
You’re talking about staging
0:37:02.097 –> 0:37:03.199
your life to the best of
0:37:03.219 –> 0:37:05.322
your ability in a way that
0:37:05.521 –> 0:37:06.943
feeds your values, that.
0:37:09.106 –> 0:37:10.367
Is also meeting your basic
0:37:10.427 –> 0:37:11.168
needs of survival.
0:37:12.318 –> 0:37:12.880
Exactly.
0:37:12.900 –> 0:37:16.023
I mean, it’s not an easy thing to do.
0:37:16.043 –> 0:37:18.085
I will say it depends on
0:37:18.125 –> 0:37:20.688
where you’re at on this scale.
0:37:21.409 –> 0:37:23.331
This is a pretty high level consideration.
0:37:23.391 –> 0:37:24.231
If you’re at a place where
0:37:24.251 –> 0:37:25.632
you’re thinking about how
0:37:25.652 –> 0:37:26.813
can I combine everything
0:37:26.853 –> 0:37:28.516
I’m good at and still meet
0:37:28.536 –> 0:37:29.396
my basic needs?
0:37:29.617 –> 0:37:29.858
I mean,
0:37:30.257 –> 0:37:31.920
this is the kind of thing you want
0:37:31.940 –> 0:37:33.722
to make kind of high up on this mountain.
0:37:34.222 –> 0:37:35.043
If you’re pretty low,
0:37:35.103 –> 0:37:37.565
if you’re in a currently depressed state,
0:37:37.945 –> 0:37:38.626
I think you need to be
0:37:38.686 –> 0:37:41.148
focusing on smaller steps at this point.
0:37:41.809 –> 0:37:42.811
And this is where things
0:37:42.851 –> 0:37:44.472
like behavioral activation come in.
0:37:45.032 –> 0:37:47.596
I am always advocating for
0:37:47.695 –> 0:37:48.896
the activity schedule for
0:37:48.936 –> 0:37:50.858
people who are currently depressed,
0:37:50.918 –> 0:37:51.800
who are struggling emotionally.
0:37:52.119 –> 0:37:53.661
To get out of bed each day,
0:37:53.701 –> 0:37:54.782
because essentially what’s
0:37:54.802 –> 0:37:56.643
happening is a vicious
0:37:56.682 –> 0:37:57.864
cycle where you’re not
0:37:57.884 –> 0:37:59.485
giving yourself reason to
0:37:59.525 –> 0:38:00.346
approve of yourself.
0:38:00.885 –> 0:38:01.586
As a result,
0:38:01.726 –> 0:38:02.847
you have this very negative
0:38:02.907 –> 0:38:04.528
view of yourself that it
0:38:04.628 –> 0:38:05.510
may be distorted.
0:38:05.550 –> 0:38:06.070
It may not.
0:38:06.110 –> 0:38:08.391
But you believe that you’re worthless,
0:38:08.452 –> 0:38:09.713
incompetent, whatever it is.
0:38:10.293 –> 0:38:11.054
And then as a result,
0:38:11.074 –> 0:38:11.855
that’s creating a very
0:38:11.934 –> 0:38:13.036
negative mood and that’s
0:38:13.076 –> 0:38:14.436
making you not want to do anything.
0:38:14.496 –> 0:38:16.039
And so this cycle of
0:38:16.259 –> 0:38:17.340
idleness and negative
0:38:17.661 –> 0:38:19.443
self-regard basically keeps
0:38:19.483 –> 0:38:20.123
you locked in.
0:38:20.664 –> 0:38:22.766
And so the key for people in
0:38:22.806 –> 0:38:25.588
this state is to take baby
0:38:25.628 –> 0:38:26.690
steps to actually get
0:38:26.730 –> 0:38:27.731
yourself to take these
0:38:27.851 –> 0:38:29.052
actions that you will
0:38:29.092 –> 0:38:30.134
approve of yourself for.
0:38:30.614 –> 0:38:31.996
I mean, if it’s nothing more than
0:38:32.436 –> 0:38:34.358
get out of bed and take a shower each day,
0:38:34.378 –> 0:38:35.038
right?
0:38:35.137 –> 0:38:36.298
This is giving yourself
0:38:36.599 –> 0:38:38.840
something to approve of, something to say,
0:38:39.322 –> 0:38:41.143
I’m, you know, a valuable person.
0:38:41.963 –> 0:38:43.164
And that goes a lot further
0:38:43.184 –> 0:38:44.126
than just talking to
0:38:44.166 –> 0:38:44.925
yourself and telling
0:38:44.945 –> 0:38:46.228
yourself I’m a valuable person.
0:38:46.288 –> 0:38:47.288
If you go out and prove it
0:38:47.307 –> 0:38:48.128
through your actions,
0:38:48.489 –> 0:38:49.130
it’s going to have a much
0:38:49.190 –> 0:38:50.190
deeper impact on your
0:38:50.231 –> 0:38:51.152
beliefs and your mood.
0:38:51.871 –> 0:38:52.952
And then gradually working
0:38:52.972 –> 0:38:54.713
your way up to the point where, you know,
0:38:54.733 –> 0:38:56.376
you’re not just taking a shower each day,
0:38:56.416 –> 0:38:56.556
you’re
0:38:56.885 –> 0:38:57.666
You’re cleaning your room,
0:38:57.686 –> 0:38:59.286
you’re going on a walk, reading a book,
0:38:59.746 –> 0:38:59.907
right?
0:38:59.947 –> 0:39:02.027
Whatever next step you can take.
0:39:02.527 –> 0:39:03.969
I think this applies too to
0:39:04.009 –> 0:39:05.128
the kind of New Year’s
0:39:05.188 –> 0:39:06.449
resolution approach that
0:39:06.469 –> 0:39:07.530
you’re talking about here.
0:39:07.909 –> 0:39:09.550
We try to do things way
0:39:09.630 –> 0:39:11.110
outside of our ability and
0:39:11.130 –> 0:39:12.472
we can sustain it for a few
0:39:12.512 –> 0:39:14.072
weeks and then we burn out.
0:39:14.231 –> 0:39:15.572
I think the baby steps thing,
0:39:15.612 –> 0:39:17.554
the incrementally adding
0:39:17.634 –> 0:39:19.114
more virtue behaviors to
0:39:19.173 –> 0:39:20.914
our lifestyle and then
0:39:21.715 –> 0:39:22.956
taking it up a notch again
0:39:23.096 –> 0:39:24.775
once we’ve mastered it on that level,
0:39:24.835 –> 0:39:26.217
I think is really crucial.
0:39:27.889 –> 0:39:29.610
thank you thank you thank
0:39:29.650 –> 0:39:30.951
you ryan for bringing that
0:39:31.190 –> 0:39:32.771
up uh this is why I love
0:39:32.831 –> 0:39:34.791
unscripted podcasts because
0:39:34.831 –> 0:39:37.952
it’s just so real and that
0:39:37.992 –> 0:39:39.353
never would have come up if
0:39:39.414 –> 0:39:41.293
I had just had pre-loaded
0:39:41.634 –> 0:39:42.655
list of questions and
0:39:42.695 –> 0:39:43.775
that’s all we stuck to because
0:39:44.574 –> 0:39:45.775
Behavioral activation is one
0:39:45.815 –> 0:39:47.677
of those terms that get
0:39:47.697 –> 0:39:50.898
thrown around in therapy and psychology.
0:39:51.737 –> 0:39:55.420
What you just said is so true.
0:39:55.599 –> 0:39:58.201
That’s the reasoning behind it.
0:39:58.601 –> 0:39:59.262
I think a lot of the time
0:39:59.282 –> 0:40:00.561
the reasoning isn’t talked about.
0:40:00.742 –> 0:40:04.043
We’re dealing with depression and
0:40:05.000 –> 0:40:05.780
or anxiety,
0:40:05.820 –> 0:40:07.300
but it’s specifically depression,
0:40:07.440 –> 0:40:08.221
because it affects our
0:40:08.260 –> 0:40:09.440
ability to predict pleasure.
0:40:10.300 –> 0:40:11.481
And it affects our motivation.
0:40:12.481 –> 0:40:14.342
And so that is one of the
0:40:14.422 –> 0:40:16.043
main pillars in treatment, right?
0:40:16.103 –> 0:40:18.023
For that reason, as you said, it,
0:40:20.423 –> 0:40:24.083
we need that feedback loop with ourself,
0:40:24.485 –> 0:40:25.724
that there’s something
0:40:25.804 –> 0:40:27.304
tangible that we’re doing
0:40:27.344 –> 0:40:28.324
that we can then look back
0:40:28.405 –> 0:40:30.425
on and be proud of that sense of
0:40:32.023 –> 0:40:34.764
adequacy and among other
0:40:34.804 –> 0:40:36.565
things right and that will
0:40:36.625 –> 0:40:37.666
in turn feed our sense of
0:40:37.686 –> 0:40:40.007
virtues that is just thank
0:40:40.027 –> 0:40:40.947
you for bringing that up
0:40:41.367 –> 0:40:42.527
and why that’s so important
0:40:43.289 –> 0:40:44.228
because it is and I think
0:40:44.248 –> 0:40:45.030
we talk about a lot of
0:40:45.070 –> 0:40:47.351
these esoteric kind of
0:40:47.371 –> 0:40:48.711
concepts you know like
0:40:48.851 –> 0:40:51.592
self-actualization right um
0:40:51.773 –> 0:40:52.853
and living that you know in
0:40:52.893 –> 0:40:54.534
autonomy and creating a
0:40:54.554 –> 0:40:55.875
life by our design but
0:40:55.894 –> 0:40:56.856
these are very high level
0:40:59.909 –> 0:41:01.289
goals, if you would, right?
0:41:01.309 –> 0:41:03.331
And sometimes they’re not
0:41:03.371 –> 0:41:04.351
the most practical thing if
0:41:04.371 –> 0:41:05.152
we’re in the trenches
0:41:05.213 –> 0:41:07.014
trying to just get by, right?
0:41:07.775 –> 0:41:08.554
Well, in some ways,
0:41:08.956 –> 0:41:10.597
it’s all one continuous process.
0:41:10.697 –> 0:41:12.038
It just sort of changes form.
0:41:12.137 –> 0:41:12.938
I think behavioral
0:41:12.998 –> 0:41:14.719
activation and activity
0:41:14.760 –> 0:41:15.639
scheduling is
0:41:16.101 –> 0:41:18.202
self-actualization on kind of the lowest,
0:41:18.262 –> 0:41:19.202
most basic level.
0:41:19.603 –> 0:41:20.943
And it just goes on from there.
0:41:21.043 –> 0:41:23.085
I think there is a notion that once you,
0:41:23.105 –> 0:41:25.126
you know, reach healthy and normal and
0:41:25.447 –> 0:41:27.148
You don’t need therapy anymore.
0:41:27.168 –> 0:41:28.829
You don’t need to do these practices.
0:41:28.929 –> 0:41:30.789
But I think it continues from there.
0:41:30.809 –> 0:41:32.190
It becomes this, you know,
0:41:32.231 –> 0:41:34.913
self-actualizing process from there.
0:41:35.413 –> 0:41:37.313
So I do think it’s very
0:41:37.353 –> 0:41:38.454
important to think about it
0:41:38.494 –> 0:41:39.195
in those terms.
0:41:39.556 –> 0:41:40.677
I also think that there’s
0:41:40.976 –> 0:41:43.378
going to be times when, you know,
0:41:43.677 –> 0:41:43.998
you’re…
0:41:44.699 –> 0:41:45.639
Beliefs about yourself
0:41:45.719 –> 0:41:46.780
really are not true.
0:41:47.320 –> 0:41:47.740
And hence,
0:41:48.222 –> 0:41:49.702
behavioral activation may not be
0:41:49.762 –> 0:41:50.983
as appropriate as cognitive
0:41:51.003 –> 0:41:51.704
restructuring.
0:41:52.105 –> 0:41:53.184
If you really are living
0:41:53.244 –> 0:41:54.405
according to your values,
0:41:54.505 –> 0:41:56.047
but some kind of distorted
0:41:56.106 –> 0:41:57.228
belief is hurting your
0:41:57.248 –> 0:41:58.329
ability to see that,
0:41:58.768 –> 0:41:59.630
even if everyone else
0:41:59.690 –> 0:42:00.550
around you can see it,
0:42:00.771 –> 0:42:01.891
even if everyone’s saying, you know,
0:42:01.911 –> 0:42:02.072
you’re
0:42:02.371 –> 0:42:03.552
You’re incredible at your work.
0:42:03.612 –> 0:42:04.693
Everyone loves you in your life,
0:42:04.753 –> 0:42:06.375
but you don’t see it yourself.
0:42:06.835 –> 0:42:08.356
I think that’s when the
0:42:08.496 –> 0:42:09.556
cognitive restructuring
0:42:09.597 –> 0:42:11.739
approach and changing those
0:42:11.798 –> 0:42:12.659
distorted beliefs,
0:42:12.760 –> 0:42:13.920
replacing them with healthy,
0:42:14.041 –> 0:42:15.101
balanced alternatives.
0:42:15.501 –> 0:42:16.322
That’s when it’s going to be
0:42:16.362 –> 0:42:17.023
really crucial.
0:42:17.422 –> 0:42:18.724
And so I’m arguing in this book,
0:42:19.164 –> 0:42:21.266
something I haven’t heard argued before,
0:42:21.326 –> 0:42:22.766
which is really that, um,
0:42:23.608 –> 0:42:24.668
The difference in whether a
0:42:25.108 –> 0:42:26.170
cognitive approach or a
0:42:26.210 –> 0:42:27.532
behavioral approach is
0:42:27.552 –> 0:42:28.793
going to be most effective
0:42:28.992 –> 0:42:30.574
for an individual is likely
0:42:30.594 –> 0:42:32.637
to be based on whether the
0:42:32.697 –> 0:42:34.199
reason they aren’t seeing
0:42:34.219 –> 0:42:35.159
the signal of their own
0:42:35.219 –> 0:42:36.762
virtues is because they’re
0:42:36.802 –> 0:42:38.262
not taking action to bring
0:42:38.282 –> 0:42:39.704
them out or because they’ve
0:42:39.724 –> 0:42:40.925
got distortions preventing
0:42:40.965 –> 0:42:41.887
them from seeing it.
0:42:42.288 –> 0:42:42.467
Right.
0:42:42.648 –> 0:42:43.228
That’s beautiful.
0:42:44.489 –> 0:42:45.710
I’ve thought this before,
0:42:45.769 –> 0:42:46.429
but I’ve never thought
0:42:46.469 –> 0:42:47.309
about it in that way.
0:42:48.610 –> 0:42:49.771
Cause I know when, you know,
0:42:49.871 –> 0:42:50.670
when I’m getting ready to
0:42:50.690 –> 0:42:51.231
work with the client,
0:42:51.271 –> 0:42:52.231
it’s always the question,
0:42:52.871 –> 0:42:54.972
is this a thought process problem?
0:42:55.293 –> 0:42:58.074
Is this behavior problem?
0:42:58.634 –> 0:43:00.655
You know, is this an environmental problem,
0:43:00.675 –> 0:43:00.934
you know,
0:43:00.954 –> 0:43:02.434
systems theory and that kind of thing.
0:43:03.396 –> 0:43:03.596
Um,
0:43:04.376 –> 0:43:06.817
but that makes absolute sense the way
0:43:06.836 –> 0:43:08.456
you just said that, you know,
0:43:08.617 –> 0:43:09.318
and I think that’s,
0:43:10.398 –> 0:43:11.478
that’s why everyone should get this book.
0:43:13.719 –> 0:43:14.360
There you go.
0:43:15.039 –> 0:43:16.481
Something we haven’t touched on, though,
0:43:16.880 –> 0:43:18.541
and I would love if you don’t mind,
0:43:18.561 –> 0:43:21.202
is when you talk about the
0:43:21.282 –> 0:43:23.885
relationship between values and virtues.
0:43:23.925 –> 0:43:25.965
And we started to touch on
0:43:25.985 –> 0:43:26.666
this when we’re talking
0:43:26.706 –> 0:43:28.746
about competing values.
0:43:30.447 –> 0:43:31.668
But can we talk a little bit
0:43:31.708 –> 0:43:33.230
about the relationship
0:43:33.269 –> 0:43:34.510
between values and virtues
0:43:34.530 –> 0:43:35.710
when you talk about your
0:43:36.431 –> 0:43:38.952
virtue spectrum or your portfolio?
0:43:38.972 –> 0:43:39.052
Yeah.
0:43:40.056 –> 0:43:40.317
Right.
0:43:40.858 –> 0:43:41.137
Yeah.
0:43:41.239 –> 0:43:43.460
Virtues and values in many cases,
0:43:43.501 –> 0:43:45.282
they can be sort of used interchangeably.
0:43:45.362 –> 0:43:47.885
But I think virtues are what
0:43:47.925 –> 0:43:48.867
we demonstrate in our
0:43:48.907 –> 0:43:50.690
behaviors and values are
0:43:50.730 –> 0:43:52.791
what we use to evaluate others.
0:43:53.213 –> 0:43:54.514
So you could say, you know,
0:43:54.653 –> 0:43:56.436
one example of an exchange
0:43:56.476 –> 0:43:58.418
here is that some person says,
0:43:58.798 –> 0:44:01.039
Take some act of courage, for example.
0:44:02.061 –> 0:44:03.641
They are demonstrating their
0:44:03.721 –> 0:44:04.882
virtue of courage.
0:44:05.202 –> 0:44:06.322
Someone else observing them
0:44:06.342 –> 0:44:08.842
and admiring them is using
0:44:08.862 –> 0:44:10.043
their values to say,
0:44:10.164 –> 0:44:11.804
I admire what that person just did.
0:44:12.264 –> 0:44:12.804
And so really,
0:44:12.844 –> 0:44:14.166
it’s like one is the giving end,
0:44:14.286 –> 0:44:15.425
one is the receiving end.
0:44:15.865 –> 0:44:17.027
The virtue is what you do.
0:44:17.086 –> 0:44:19.327
The value is what you use to perceive.
0:44:20.847 –> 0:44:22.590
I like that you have a
0:44:22.630 –> 0:44:24.514
really cool graph in your
0:44:24.574 –> 0:44:25.755
book do you mind if I share
0:44:25.775 –> 0:44:26.836
like a crude example of it,
0:44:26.896 –> 0:44:27.739
so we can show in that for
0:44:27.759 –> 0:44:32.085
a second sure all right cool so.
0:44:33.961 –> 0:44:35.302
And I think just for visually.
0:44:35.362 –> 0:44:36.322
So in your book,
0:44:36.342 –> 0:44:40.505
you have kind of a graph
0:44:40.525 –> 0:44:43.927
where you talk about virtues and values,
0:44:44.007 –> 0:44:44.248
right?
0:44:44.947 –> 0:44:46.349
Or I should say an infograph.
0:44:47.668 –> 0:44:47.869
Right.
0:44:47.909 –> 0:44:48.769
And you talk about each of
0:44:48.789 –> 0:44:50.170
these buckets kind of being
0:44:50.190 –> 0:44:51.411
a value bucket, right?
0:44:52.231 –> 0:44:52.431
Yeah.
0:44:52.592 –> 0:44:53.972
But you say how we fill
0:44:53.992 –> 0:44:56.914
these buckets are the virtues, right?
0:44:58.074 –> 0:44:58.255
Mm hmm.
0:44:59.815 –> 0:45:00.615
Something to that effect.
0:45:03.077 –> 0:45:03.237
And
0:45:07.693 –> 0:45:08.474
This goes back to what you
0:45:08.514 –> 0:45:09.994
were saying when it comes
0:45:10.155 –> 0:45:13.396
to doubling down, right?
0:45:14.077 –> 0:45:18.757
Because thinking about our
0:45:18.838 –> 0:45:21.199
virtues and our personality
0:45:21.760 –> 0:45:23.199
as being kind of like this,
0:45:23.280 –> 0:45:24.760
almost like a soundboard, right?
0:45:24.800 –> 0:45:26.081
We can turn the levels up
0:45:26.141 –> 0:45:28.581
and down on how we’re attending to them.
0:45:28.641 –> 0:45:31.422
And so it’s not like a light switch.
0:45:32.704 –> 0:45:34.364
Oh, I’m a healthy person today.
0:45:35.385 –> 0:45:37.065
Yeah.
0:45:37.686 –> 0:45:39.527
This year, I want to be a, you know,
0:45:40.027 –> 0:45:41.568
a family person, you know,
0:45:42.168 –> 0:45:43.349
and it’s not all or nothing.
0:45:43.949 –> 0:45:44.128
Right.
0:45:44.489 –> 0:45:45.309
But what makes up our
0:45:45.389 –> 0:45:46.389
personalities and the
0:45:46.429 –> 0:45:47.891
things we value in other people,
0:45:48.411 –> 0:45:49.351
and correct me if I’m wrong,
0:45:49.391 –> 0:45:50.072
is what you’re saying is
0:45:50.112 –> 0:45:52.813
that we can choose how we
0:45:52.833 –> 0:45:55.934
want to throttle these, the virtue,
0:45:57.175 –> 0:45:58.695
or the amount of virtue in each value,
0:45:59.177 –> 0:45:59.817
something to that effect.
0:46:00.902 –> 0:46:01.722
Yeah, definitely.
0:46:01.782 –> 0:46:02.943
We’re balancing all of them.
0:46:02.983 –> 0:46:04.324
And we want to really go to
0:46:04.364 –> 0:46:06.467
where we get the most bang for our buck,
0:46:06.547 –> 0:46:06.726
right?
0:46:07.027 –> 0:46:08.929
The highest net virtue, you could say.
0:46:08.949 –> 0:46:10.831
So we want to just observe
0:46:10.871 –> 0:46:12.233
from our actions, you know,
0:46:12.733 –> 0:46:13.853
how much energy and time
0:46:13.893 –> 0:46:15.695
does it take for me to get
0:46:15.795 –> 0:46:17.818
better at this one thing versus another?
0:46:18.217 –> 0:46:20.179
Some of them, it’ll go much further.
0:46:20.340 –> 0:46:22.222
Others will have to spend 10 times longer.
0:46:22.242 –> 0:46:25.385
So probably we should invest
0:46:25.605 –> 0:46:27.047
in what will go the furthest.
0:46:28.268 –> 0:46:28.467
You know,
0:46:28.487 –> 0:46:30.170
I also think something cool about
0:46:30.210 –> 0:46:32.532
this sort of buckets or
0:46:32.572 –> 0:46:34.833
containers concept is the
0:46:34.934 –> 0:46:36.876
idea that our virtue can
0:46:37.097 –> 0:46:38.177
potentially overflow.
0:46:38.197 –> 0:46:40.880
I think we have this idea that
0:46:42.199 –> 0:46:43.262
we should either focus on
0:46:43.302 –> 0:46:44.503
ourselves or we should
0:46:44.543 –> 0:46:45.824
focus on other people and
0:46:45.885 –> 0:46:46.545
benefiting them.
0:46:46.945 –> 0:46:47.706
And some would say it’s
0:46:47.766 –> 0:46:49.409
narcissistic to focus on
0:46:50.050 –> 0:46:51.490
our own self-approval and
0:46:51.530 –> 0:46:53.012
our own strengths and to be
0:46:53.072 –> 0:46:54.134
so self-oriented.
0:46:54.494 –> 0:46:55.976
But I think what comes into
0:46:56.036 –> 0:46:57.177
view here is that
0:46:57.557 –> 0:46:58.978
When we develop our own
0:46:59.097 –> 0:47:01.179
strengths to a very high ability,
0:47:01.639 –> 0:47:02.960
they start overflowing.
0:47:02.980 –> 0:47:04.559
They start benefiting other people.
0:47:05.019 –> 0:47:06.360
And really what seemed like
0:47:06.400 –> 0:47:07.481
a selfish act of
0:47:07.561 –> 0:47:09.561
self-actualization becomes
0:47:09.981 –> 0:47:10.922
self-transcendence.
0:47:11.061 –> 0:47:12.362
Other people benefit from
0:47:12.501 –> 0:47:14.163
our labors when we get
0:47:14.202 –> 0:47:15.143
really good at something.
0:47:15.963 –> 0:47:17.425
And so they kind of merge into one.
0:47:17.505 –> 0:47:18.565
This is something Abraham
0:47:18.606 –> 0:47:20.487
Maslow argued that, you know,
0:47:20.547 –> 0:47:21.889
selfish and selfless were
0:47:21.929 –> 0:47:23.349
not really opposites.
0:47:23.389 –> 0:47:24.490
They go together when you’re
0:47:24.530 –> 0:47:25.291
on the right path.
0:47:25.773 –> 0:47:27.373
You are both selfishly
0:47:27.414 –> 0:47:28.394
benefiting your own
0:47:28.675 –> 0:47:29.675
well-being and you’re
0:47:29.695 –> 0:47:31.438
benefiting others and serving them.
0:47:33.074 –> 0:47:33.315
See,
0:47:33.494 –> 0:47:34.596
I knew there’s a reason I wanted to
0:47:34.615 –> 0:47:35.456
circle back to this.
0:47:36.516 –> 0:47:37.177
That’s what it was.
0:47:37.556 –> 0:47:38.336
That’s what I was reading
0:47:38.396 –> 0:47:40.538
that that that slapped me in the face.
0:47:41.338 –> 0:47:42.559
It wasn’t just this idea of
0:47:42.619 –> 0:47:43.719
attending the different
0:47:43.960 –> 0:47:44.760
aspects of the self.
0:47:44.860 –> 0:47:45.719
It was why.
0:47:45.739 –> 0:47:47.440
That’s what it was.
0:47:48.621 –> 0:47:49.342
Going back to that.
0:47:52.025 –> 0:47:53.186
you know when Maslow talks
0:47:53.226 –> 0:47:54.547
about being actualized he
0:47:54.586 –> 0:47:56.347
talks about the reason is
0:47:56.369 –> 0:47:57.369
that we want to give back
0:47:57.409 –> 0:48:00.032
to the world those things
0:48:00.052 –> 0:48:01.032
that have benefited because
0:48:01.052 –> 0:48:03.534
we’ve benefited right it’s
0:48:03.614 –> 0:48:05.275
now that we’ve reached a
0:48:05.315 –> 0:48:06.876
place where we’re able to
0:48:06.996 –> 0:48:07.777
use our talents and our
0:48:07.818 –> 0:48:09.518
gifts we can you know and
0:48:09.559 –> 0:48:10.320
focus on those things we
0:48:10.340 –> 0:48:11.101
can use them to bless
0:48:11.161 –> 0:48:13.742
others and I do believe
0:48:13.782 –> 0:48:14.543
that’s the secret to
0:48:14.583 –> 0:48:16.025
happiness right is the
0:48:16.085 –> 0:48:18.126
ability to be of service to others right
0:48:19.268 –> 0:48:21.309
And we can only, you know, not,
0:48:21.931 –> 0:48:22.851
we can’t only do that,
0:48:22.891 –> 0:48:24.494
but we do that better when
0:48:24.514 –> 0:48:25.596
we take care of ourselves,
0:48:25.655 –> 0:48:28.559
when we are growing as an individual,
0:48:28.840 –> 0:48:29.000
right?
0:48:29.039 –> 0:48:29.960
Then we can show up better
0:48:30.001 –> 0:48:30.561
for other people.
0:48:31.222 –> 0:48:31.583
Like you say,
0:48:31.623 –> 0:48:32.684
it spills over without even
0:48:32.724 –> 0:48:34.327
necessarily being our intention.
0:48:34.367 –> 0:48:36.108
That’s just what happens, right?
0:48:37.293 –> 0:48:37.552
Yeah,
0:48:37.672 –> 0:48:39.394
I think most of our virtues really
0:48:39.574 –> 0:48:41.556
are of a social origin.
0:48:41.577 –> 0:48:42.858
They’re of a social nature.
0:48:42.958 –> 0:48:43.197
I mean,
0:48:43.318 –> 0:48:45.260
you can’t just be compassionate in
0:48:45.340 –> 0:48:47.440
a room by yourself alone, you know.
0:48:47.842 –> 0:48:49.722
And so by doing these things
0:48:49.742 –> 0:48:52.204
that are going to increase your happiness,
0:48:52.244 –> 0:48:53.947
you are almost inevitably
0:48:54.007 –> 0:48:55.588
helping other people in the process.
0:48:58.550 –> 0:48:59.090
Thank you for that.
0:48:59.851 –> 0:49:03.695
That was very, very insightful.
0:49:03.715 –> 0:49:03.795
Yeah.
0:49:06.806 –> 0:49:08.849
so on that note I’m
0:49:08.909 –> 0:49:09.989
wondering when is your book
0:49:10.010 –> 0:49:11.911
coming out when can the
0:49:11.952 –> 0:49:13.753
master get it so it’s
0:49:13.914 –> 0:49:14.875
already available for
0:49:14.934 –> 0:49:16.135
pre-order and we are trying
0:49:16.155 –> 0:49:17.097
to go pretty big with the
0:49:17.117 –> 0:49:18.498
pre-order it’s it’s
0:49:18.557 –> 0:49:19.699
literally two dollars to
0:49:19.719 –> 0:49:20.860
get it on kindle right now
0:49:21.041 –> 0:49:21.900
it’ll be more when it’s
0:49:21.981 –> 0:49:24.023
actually out so um I would
0:49:24.063 –> 0:49:25.123
encourage everyone to go
0:49:25.164 –> 0:49:26.585
and uh pre-order at least
0:49:26.686 –> 0:49:28.327
one copy I’m also giving away
0:49:29.047 –> 0:49:30.168
like thousands of dollars in
0:49:30.188 –> 0:49:32.489
bonuses to anyone who buys, um,
0:49:32.630 –> 0:49:34.451
or pre-orders several copies or more.
0:49:34.610 –> 0:49:36.211
So, um, yeah,
0:49:36.291 –> 0:49:37.572
I would say designing the
0:49:37.592 –> 0:49:39.333
mind.org slash becoming is
0:49:39.393 –> 0:49:40.815
the best place to go.
0:49:40.934 –> 0:49:43.476
You can also join my email list and, um,
0:49:43.655 –> 0:49:44.637
get a couple of free books
0:49:44.717 –> 0:49:45.858
and I’ll give you right away.
0:49:45.878 –> 0:49:45.918
Um,
0:49:47.038 –> 0:49:47.217
you know,
0:49:47.237 –> 0:49:48.938
digital copies of the Psychotext
0:49:48.998 –> 0:49:51.199
Toolkit and the Book of Self-Mastery,
0:49:51.219 –> 0:49:52.740
which I’ve written in the past.
0:49:53.840 –> 0:49:54.081
And yeah,
0:49:54.101 –> 0:49:55.461
the book will actually come out
0:49:55.762 –> 0:49:56.601
February 27th, 2024.
0:49:56.601 –> 0:50:00.704
So yeah, looking forward to sharing it.
0:50:01.224 –> 0:50:01.543
Excellent.
0:50:01.563 –> 0:50:01.644
Well,
0:50:01.664 –> 0:50:03.224
I’ll be sure to obviously tie up to
0:50:03.304 –> 0:50:04.585
all of that in the show notes.
0:50:05.786 –> 0:50:06.887
You’re doing a wonderful work,
0:50:07.367 –> 0:50:09.188
helping us expand our mind
0:50:09.268 –> 0:50:10.929
and give us strategies for
0:50:10.969 –> 0:50:12.170
personal development and to
0:50:12.210 –> 0:50:13.570
think outside the box.
0:50:14.070 –> 0:50:15.490
This is the stuff, you know,
0:50:15.610 –> 0:50:17.271
that’s always been tricky with life.
0:50:17.472 –> 0:50:17.692
You know,
0:50:17.711 –> 0:50:20.693
we talk about the pursuit of happiness,
0:50:21.353 –> 0:50:21.574
right?
0:50:21.873 –> 0:50:22.755
The pursuit of
0:50:24.340 –> 0:50:25.302
a life well lived.
0:50:25.762 –> 0:50:28.344
It could look different for everybody,
0:50:28.605 –> 0:50:29.947
the strategy for figuring
0:50:30.007 –> 0:50:32.528
out what it is that we want, you know,
0:50:32.728 –> 0:50:33.289
that’s key.
0:50:34.550 –> 0:50:36.213
And I think that is, again,
0:50:36.753 –> 0:50:38.655
kind of been at the root of philosophy,
0:50:38.936 –> 0:50:39.175
you know,
0:50:39.356 –> 0:50:41.838
from the dawn of our time and
0:50:42.259 –> 0:50:43.400
humans and because we’ve
0:50:43.960 –> 0:50:44.922
had the same problems and
0:50:44.942 –> 0:50:45.922
the same desires and
0:50:46.643 –> 0:50:47.425
figuring out how to make
0:50:47.445 –> 0:50:49.268
that work and quote,
0:50:49.327 –> 0:50:50.329
find ourselves or find
0:50:50.409 –> 0:50:52.152
purpose or find meaning, you know,
0:50:52.192 –> 0:50:52.773
it’s within us.
0:50:53.153 –> 0:50:54.516
But these are the keys, right?
0:50:56.117 –> 0:50:56.739
Absolutely.
0:50:56.898 –> 0:50:57.119
Yeah,
0:50:57.478 –> 0:50:59.802
I wish in some ways it was a deeper
0:50:59.842 –> 0:51:01.143
part of our culture asking
0:51:01.182 –> 0:51:02.583
these questions because, you know,
0:51:02.603 –> 0:51:04.405
you say it’s at the root of
0:51:04.445 –> 0:51:06.188
philosophy and originally it was,
0:51:06.248 –> 0:51:08.429
but now philosophy becomes
0:51:08.449 –> 0:51:10.231
a much more academic thing
0:51:10.251 –> 0:51:11.413
and school is centered
0:51:11.432 –> 0:51:13.195
around being good employees
0:51:13.215 –> 0:51:14.536
versus being good human
0:51:14.576 –> 0:51:15.657
beings that are capable of
0:51:15.697 –> 0:51:16.338
being happy and
0:51:16.757 –> 0:51:17.677
giving back to the world.
0:51:17.757 –> 0:51:20.059
So we do need places for
0:51:20.559 –> 0:51:21.920
really asking these questions.
0:51:21.980 –> 0:51:24.181
And that’s why I built, you know, MindForm,
0:51:24.201 –> 0:51:24.782
which is kind of a
0:51:24.822 –> 0:51:27.222
community centered around the good life.
0:51:27.322 –> 0:51:28.862
But absolutely,
0:51:28.902 –> 0:51:29.744
this is this is the
0:51:29.764 –> 0:51:31.003
questions and the
0:51:31.403 –> 0:51:32.244
discussions we need to be
0:51:32.284 –> 0:51:33.065
having constantly.
0:51:33.085 –> 0:51:33.846
Can you say a little bit
0:51:33.865 –> 0:51:34.706
more about your community?
0:51:35.853 –> 0:51:36.134
Sure.
0:51:36.213 –> 0:51:36.393
Yeah.
0:51:36.434 –> 0:51:39.094
Mindform is currently an online community,
0:51:39.155 –> 0:51:40.496
but at some point I would
0:51:40.516 –> 0:51:41.735
like to turn it into an
0:51:41.835 –> 0:51:43.456
actual place you can go
0:51:43.597 –> 0:51:45.378
almost like a fitness gym
0:51:45.418 –> 0:51:46.797
or a health club for your
0:51:46.898 –> 0:51:47.998
mental health instead of
0:51:48.059 –> 0:51:48.898
just physical health.
0:51:49.440 –> 0:51:50.019
And so, yeah.
0:51:51.027 –> 0:51:53.228
Yeah, I think we need a community,
0:51:53.288 –> 0:51:54.288
particularly those who
0:51:54.427 –> 0:51:56.509
aren’t necessarily religious, right?
0:51:56.568 –> 0:51:58.550
Those who, yeah,
0:51:58.610 –> 0:52:00.351
who don’t subscribe to a
0:52:00.411 –> 0:52:01.650
view that would really make
0:52:01.690 –> 0:52:02.791
sense for them to go to
0:52:02.992 –> 0:52:04.652
church and something like that.
0:52:05.072 –> 0:52:05.833
You can actually go to
0:52:05.873 –> 0:52:08.134
mindform.io to find it.
0:52:08.494 –> 0:52:09.574
I intentionally don’t
0:52:09.635 –> 0:52:10.454
feature it much on the
0:52:10.474 –> 0:52:11.574
website because it’s kind of- Yeah,
0:52:11.594 –> 0:52:12.356
I found how to think for it.
0:52:14.797 –> 0:52:15.077
Yeah.
0:52:16.197 –> 0:52:17.657
But mindform.io,
0:52:18.438 –> 0:52:20.139
I don’t want just anyone
0:52:20.179 –> 0:52:21.280
wandering in and it’s
0:52:21.340 –> 0:52:22.701
actually application only
0:52:22.721 –> 0:52:24.643
to ensure that we have a
0:52:25.043 –> 0:52:27.023
really high quality group
0:52:27.043 –> 0:52:29.425
who have the right values
0:52:29.585 –> 0:52:30.865
and focus and everything.
0:52:31.347 –> 0:52:32.166
But yeah,
0:52:32.226 –> 0:52:33.467
there’s a video on there that’ll
0:52:33.887 –> 0:52:34.528
show you about it.
0:52:35.393 –> 0:52:36.373
Well, thank you so much for that.
0:52:36.393 –> 0:52:36.974
I just want to make sure
0:52:37.014 –> 0:52:39.876
that our audience has all of the tools,
0:52:40.195 –> 0:52:40.516
you know,
0:52:40.675 –> 0:52:42.898
to access your resources and
0:52:43.077 –> 0:52:44.559
really appreciate the work you’re doing.
0:52:45.398 –> 0:52:46.179
You’re always welcome back
0:52:46.260 –> 0:52:47.400
on Ryan to share how things
0:52:47.440 –> 0:52:50.121
are going with the book and the work.
0:52:50.561 –> 0:52:51.282
So thank you.
0:52:52.483 –> 0:52:53.103
So thank you.
0:52:53.304 –> 0:52:54.204
Enlightening conversation.
0:52:54.244 –> 0:52:55.425
I could talk about this stuff all day.
0:52:55.626 –> 0:52:57.226
It’s just I could too.
0:52:57.266 –> 0:52:58.327
And I’d be happy to.
0:52:58.527 –> 0:52:58.847
Yeah.
0:52:59.748 –> 0:53:01.108
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
0:53:01.369 –> 0:53:03.389
But no, appreciate you having me, Patrick.
0:53:03.429 –> 0:53:04.210
I really enjoyed it, too.
0:53:04.737 –> 0:53:05.500
And I’d be happy to come
0:53:05.541 –> 0:53:06.422
back sometime as well.
0:53:06.945 –> 0:53:07.226
Thank you.
0:53:07.365 –> 0:53:07.907
Always welcome.
0:53:08.429 –> 0:53:09.211
You take care and enjoy the
0:53:09.251 –> 0:53:09.994
rest of your week, okay?
0:53:10.596 –> 0:53:10.916
You too.
0:53:11.539 –> 0:53:11.780
Thank you.
admin
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