In this episode, I interview professor, executive coach, and founder of SILEGRA, Dr. Argelis Ortiz, who speaks on Macro Social Work, and his passion to help leaders of color seeking upward mobility.
BIO: Dr. Argelis Ortiz – a champion for Macro Social Work.
Dr. Ortiz is a compassionate executive leader passionate and eager to move into a progressive higher education institution to apply his two decades of direct social work experience, four years of graduate teaching experience, and ten years in organizational development, direct management, and fiscal oversight. Cultivator of strengths-based and outcomes-oriented team culture to achieve the largest community and organizational impact. Dr. Ortiz obtained his Bachelor of Arts, Creative Arts from San José State University (1999), an MSW (2010), and Education Doctorate (2018) from the University of Southern California.
http://silegra.org/index.php/about/
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Want to learn more about Dr. Ortiz and his passion for Macro Social Work? Check out his channels below.
Transcript: Macro Social Work- An Interview With Dr. Argelis Ortiz
Transcript
00:00:00 Speaker 1
In this episode of the Mental Health Toolbox we are talking Macro Social Work with Doctor Argelis Ortiz, who is passionate about helping leaders of color seek upward mobility. So let’s go.
00:00:21 Speaker 1
Hello Thrivers! Welcome back to the mental health toolbox. If you’re meeting me for the first time, my name is Patrick Martin and I am on a mission to help 1,000,000 people improve their quality of life through actionable tips on personal development.
00:00:35 Speaker 1
So let’s do it. Welcome Doctor Ortiz to the mental health toolbox. So happy to have you on today. I appreciate you making time.
00:00:43 Speaker 1
Uhm, would you like to let our listeners know a little bit about who you are and what it is that you do?
00:00:48 Speaker 2
Yes, Thank you Patrick, for having me on so. My name is Dr. Oritz and for the past few years I’ve been a professor at Cal State LA, Cal State Dominguez Hills primarily in the Department of Social Work. I I have a MSW and that degree has
00:01:09 Speaker 2
Allowed me to teach in those departments. Primarily, my focus is the leadership management.
00:01:15 Speaker 2
Uhm, macro social work. What they call it, I do have a clinical background, but I more lean towards sort of that.
00:01:22 Speaker 2
The bigger microscope policy and leadership, but I also have a doctorate in education and that allowed me to kind of begin my own consulting firm about a year or so ago we formalized it with my business
00:01:35 Speaker 2
Partner and I. We were for several years to do things in tandem or just separately, but we just decided to go for it a year or so ago and we focus on small to midsize organizations to ensure that they have the tools and their capacity to to make it and survive in this day and age.
00:01:54 Speaker 2
One of my passions is to to support leaders of color and who are seeking upward mobility in their own careers, but also in in any career path.
00:02:02 Speaker 2
So that’s a little bit about what I’ve done and and I’m a husband and a father and a son and a little bit of everything. So it all encompasses of who we are.
00:02:11 Speaker 1
Who I am. That’s fascinating. How fantastic.
00:02:15 Speaker 1
Oftentimes social work is considered like a terminal degree. A terminal field you went and got your doctorate in education.
00:02:22 Speaker 1
That’s no small thing. I mean, you talk about it like it. So yeah, I just you know, I just tack that on, but.
00:02:27 Speaker 1
That’s I mean, that’s a big deal, right?
00:02:29 Speaker 2
No, I think folks who who kind of asked for my journey I’ve always had a passion for teaching.
00:02:35 Speaker 2
Triple threat. I I enjoy being in front of people. I enjoy teaching, but I also do find, uh, uh, gratification with it.
00:02:46 Speaker 2
Just the principles of social work, right? Start where people are at, teach a person, how to fish and kind of the server like mindset, those type of principles really are dear to me but and community buildings huge for what I do and that education in general. I I like living in that pocket of sort of empowering people, teaching people. And so,
00:03:06 Speaker 2
Those degrees have also worked out.
00:03:09 Speaker 2
The second question people ask me often is why didn’t you go get licensed?
00:03:15 Speaker 2
And it’s always a good follow-up question because my end goal has always been high academic academia and sort of starting my own organization and license does help.
00:03:27 Speaker 2
So if folks are on route like Don’t stop, but my path was just closer to I was already in management, I was already in leadership. I was already kind of.
00:03:35 Speaker 2
Ahead of the curve, uhm?
00:03:38 Speaker 2
And not to put it this way, but if I would have got the license route, I would have really had to focus in on my craft.
00:03:43 Speaker 2
And you know 2-3 years. But I would have kind of sidestepped for a while and again, knowing that my end goal was going to be running something and I was looking more for that. That doctor in in the long run.
00:03:57 Speaker 1
Yeah, certainly I think for many people going into social work they don’t really understand the lay of the land.
00:04:03 Speaker 1
I certainly didn’t, in terms of knowing the options they have, how they wield their MSW degree in terms of do the in going to clinical route.
00:04:14 Speaker 1
Gerontology, Hospice, think tanks, politics. Like you said Macro, so yeah.
00:04:19 Speaker 2
Veterans Affairs you know child welfare, right? But there’s certain tracks that people get, especially we associate with the specific program, right?
00:04:27 Speaker 2
But depending on where you listen in the in the US, right? Some are definitely child welfare heavy. Some are really policy heavy summer really clinical base and that’s all they do in those programs. And great, I mean that that’s what they’re intended for us.
00:04:39 Speaker 2
To really build that expertise. Yeah, yeah.
00:04:45 Speaker 1
Yeah, so I mean the fact that you already had the, you know you began with the end in mind and kind of work backward knowing you wanted to do macro.
00:04:52 Speaker 1
You wanted to do policy, I’m sure it helped help you maintain clarity so you didn’t get too derailed.
00:04:58 Speaker 2
Yeah, and it was always, like, uh, whether I was doing an assignment or whether I was in work.
00:05:04 Speaker 2
It was always like I was pushing more community organizing, pushing more community type theory versus individual and that was always tough, right?
00:05:13 Speaker 2
’cause if you’re doing mental health services you have to really zero-in on what’s happening with that person.
00:05:19 Speaker 2
And think about it.
00:05:20 Speaker 2
Word, so yeah, it was. It was interesting for people who supervised me to always say, alright, well, let’s let’s tone it down how we’re going to really relate to this.
00:05:28 Speaker 2
It’s not always a big old macro situation, it is really getting to the bottom of that person, that family or you know, and you know it’s been fun, but it’s also kind of who I am, right? It’s that.
00:05:40 Speaker 2
Bigger picture, thinker doer?
00:05:44 Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely, and I think following your passion is really, really important. ’cause that’s your superpower. You know if you like the macro, that’s what you gravitate toward.
00:05:51 Speaker 1
That’s how you think you can affect some real change on that level. I think it’s one of the biggest complaints of you know, being in the you know face to face, you know fee for service kind of thing, direct service.
00:06:04 Speaker 1
It’s, you know, sometimes feels very defeating because you feel like you just can never quite
00:06:10 Speaker 1
Address these social problems. I mean we you are one family, one person at a time, but to really affect change, you know there people have to go to battle on a policy, right?
00:06:21 Speaker 2
Yeah, and I think both sex or both sides are needed, right? Whether you’re in love and passionate about helping one person at a time, right?
00:06:29 Speaker 2
Like diving deep, making sure that that person life is changed forever or making sure they don’t repeat cycles. I mean that that’s invaluable expertise. And then there’s the other side too. Like if you want to.
00:06:42 Speaker 2
Let’s get to the root cause problems that is, uh, racism? It’s a systemic. It’s like, what is it? Then you kind of need that other type of people to go on the bigger macro round so, but I think they both work. It’s when honestly it’s when.
00:06:57 Speaker 2
One is in the other side or the other shoe by accident, right? Like when a macro thinker happens to be a clinician happens to be in day in, day out, and they’re just thinking often in policy.
00:07:07 Speaker 2
Or the opposite, if there’s a super individual type clinical person and you happen to be in a systemic change opportunity, then it’s really difficult ’cause you’re not. You’re not thinking in that wavelength, right? But both are super needed.
00:07:18 Speaker 1
I can imagine two if like if you’re passionate, like if you’re in a position like that, where you feel like your hands are tide. It could lead to burnout, could lead to frustration, resentment, sometimes.
00:07:30 Speaker 2
Yeah, and I think even harder than that it it’s sort of a being a.
00:07:37 Speaker 2
Antipathic to problems or people needs right like oh here comes Steve again. Or here comes another look like Steve or you know whoever we start seeing the reoccurring mirror over again and we thought we stopped thinking about that people’s needs or oh we just started start self-diagnosing just real quick Oh yeah that’s this and then.
00:07:57 Speaker 2
Now forget about really what’s going on with that individual or that community or or that so, so I think that’s also.
00:08:05 Speaker 2
A possible pitfall that people could fall into.
00:08:09 Speaker 1
Yeah, so I’m curious. Did you jump right into teaching or what was your? What was your journey like?
00:08:14 Speaker 2
No, thanks for asking, I I think I’ve always had a way for like I gotta practice of tools in order for know what I’m talking about, right?
00:08:20 Speaker 2
So my undergraduate was even in Creative Arts, so it’s it’s a version of liberal arts, ’cause I mean, I was I wanted to teach in the long run that way.
00:08:30 Speaker 2
2003 or so when I graduated.
00:08:33 Speaker 2
Graduated San Jose State moved back to LA and in the LA area around that time, having a teaching job was difficult. Similar to now where there was a lot of coverage, session type things, or there was a hiring freeze and what I thought was going to be a teaching gig turned out to be my first opportunity to work in in the nonprofit.
00:08:54 Speaker 2
Sector and I enjoyed it because I was working as a case manager and a gang involved sort of gang prevention program.
00:09:00 Speaker 2
And I just had to reframe. It’s just another way of teaching. I’m teaching a kid or a family at a time versus a traditional classroom.
00:09:09 Speaker 2
And I said, alright, let me let me go for that for a while, and I really enjoyed it. But I was that person I was doing individual work when I was thinking bigger community macro.
00:09:20 Speaker 2
Fears into that with the support of one of my mentors and a professor at USC, he keeps on telling me he should go back for your masters. You have other like skill set. You just gotta go back.
00:09:32 Speaker 2
And just like everybody like now, enough for me. And oh, it’s cool, forget it right. But then I realized and I started seeing the supervisors around me.
00:09:34 Speaker 1
00:09:40 Speaker 2
I started seeing where I wanted to be in five 6-7 years and yeah they all had masters that maybe MFT or MSW or MBA.
00:09:50 Speaker 2
So I start realizing now I gotta go back. I gotta go back to school and do that so you know it looks like if you look at my resume it looks like I had five or six years in between each next degree, but it’s purposeful. I want to really put it to work. I want to see.
00:10:03 Speaker 2
Is this going to be really the end degree. It was always like OK, now I kind of literally master this. The next thing is already in there.
00:10:11 Speaker 2
Right, it was always kind of looking ahead and looking around me. Well, who doesn’t have word and who’s doing the decision making?
00:10:18 Speaker 2
Who’s making the moves and? And that’s how I got to align myself and now I’m here. But it it was when I say now it seems daunting, but it wasn’t.
00:10:28 Speaker 2
22 plus years journey, right? Like it’s cumulative, it’s. It’s a lifetime for people.
00:10:36 Speaker 1
Wow yeah, but I mean, I know you’re looking back. It’s like Oh yeah, that that happened. You know, in the moment it’s a lot.
00:10:42 Speaker 1
It’s a lot of work, it’s encompassing all encompassing right. When you’re in it and did you. I’m curious so you did your you went into your MSW right with the with the intention to do policy. But did you jump right into your masters?
00:10:50
Right?
00:10:50
00:10:55 Speaker 1
Education or.
00:10:57 Speaker 1
What were you doing in the?
00:10:58 Speaker 2
End between so yeah. So then.
00:11:00 Speaker 2
I was doing more leadership management at work, so I was a director and then I was a regional director.
00:11:04 Speaker 2
Then I was a vice president for organization and it was always kind of leadership positions. And the more I saw primarily in child welfare and.
00:11:17 Speaker 2
Community type work. Community development work or youth development work. And the more I saw people that were the higher ups or people like that, I realized they had either a society or a pH D. Or they had these higher degree.
00:11:32 Speaker 2
But the social work one didn’t really quite align with me then or or maybe now, but it’s it’s still focused on social welfare issues.
00:11:42 Speaker 2
But I have always been interested in that intersect within education 1st Gen needs and then just community and.
00:11:52 Speaker 2
And again, maybe the programs I was looking into, but some of the PhD type programmers really social work. Sorry. Social welfare focus or clinical focus.
00:12:01 Speaker 2
Or there’s another perspective like social entrepreneurship focus, which is fine, but I I wanted the Nexus between education and social needs or people needs and then kind of first generation.
00:12:15 Speaker 2
Issues and the education the doctors actually provided me that opportunity to go back and.
00:12:22 Speaker 2
Forth between both.
00:12:24 Speaker 1
Circles so that really gave positioned you like you said to be able to speak to
00:12:29 Speaker 1
The right audience from the right, the right platform to affect change. So I’m really curious what does that look like and what are some of the challenges that you hear that you quickly identify as being a problem with first generation immigrants?
00:12:46 Speaker 2
In general, to be honest, Patrick it it’s just lack of representation, lack of people that look like us. Act like us talk like us. A few fit a few feet ahead of us, right? I’m not even talking about.
00:12:58 Speaker 2
The president or whomever. I just people a little bit ahead of us that have quote, unquote modeled and are showing some sort of blueprint to people.
00:13:07 Speaker 2
There’s quite a bit of people who are successful. It’s quite a bit of 1st Gen Latino Chicano folks that have been around right, but to me, honestly, that they’re whomever.
00:13:17 Speaker 2
I’m thinking about the bit more removed and the people that are.
00:13:21 Speaker 2
Three just three to five years ahead of me, right? Like if they those folks could just show me in this lifetime, this is what you should be doing. You should be studying up. You should be networking, right? Whatever these.
00:13:32 Speaker 2
Quote unquote tips are.
00:13:34 Speaker 2
Would be great.
00:13:37 Speaker 2
So yeah, I think that’s the biggest one. It’s representation and.
00:13:40 Speaker 2
There’s also because I go through this sometimes is. It’s just, uh, that this creep kind of behind of impostor syndrome, right?
00:13:48 Speaker 2
Like I don’t belong here or this is too big for me. I really need help from a of a non 1st Gen.
00:13:55 Speaker 2
Right or a non-Latino like I get this stuff as well right? But I tend to have a support around me that said no, no you got this or have you talked to someone so before or you know like there there’s a way to get that resource and not that object first then people freeze but it it. It tends to be able allow me right tends to be super like.
00:14:16 Speaker 2
Self-defeating and just. You just kind of move on and you go into the next best thing that you know how to do. So I think those are the two biggest things. It’s lack of representation and just having that.
00:14:27 Speaker 2
Looming impulses from happening around us often.
00:14:30 Speaker 1
That’s really impressive to you. Taking her own lived experience with that negative voice in your head. Then they say or the impostor syndrome, which I think everybody gets at times. But from that unique perspective, you’re able to leverage that. And then as your teaching as your coaching.
00:14:47 Speaker 1
You’re able to use that as a way to to highlight the importance of having a road map. To combat those negative assumptions.
00:14:55 Speaker 1
Right?
00:14:56 Speaker 2
No, not correct, and I think I don’t. I often say, you know, I I I’m one example I’m not.
00:15:00 Speaker 2
I’m not the example right? I’m one example of how it was done, and I showed you kind of where I fell how I got up and all that but it’s my example.
00:15:08 Speaker 2
It’s been my journey, but I also realized Patrick that I’m that I’m also privileged, right? I’m a male, right? I’m fairly educated now. I I.
00:15:16 Speaker 2
I’ve always been a extrovert right? All these are things that not everybody has in their tool belt. So it is a privilege that I have that is is not equal to everybody else right now.
00:15:27 Speaker 2
I’ve always been sort of outspoken to what I need to what people need, and that’s really difficult for people, right?
00:15:33 Speaker 2
Like saying what you need is saying it clearly. It doesn’t matter what it is right? It’s difficult for folks.
00:15:39 Speaker 2
And and that’s exactly what I do with my teaching. I tend to use me as a as an example.
00:15:45 Speaker 2
I tend to use my life as a whiteboard, right? Like it’s not the end all be all. There’s just one version, but then I also try to as much as possible and people availability.
00:15:54 Speaker 2
I’d like to bring people on like yourself or people who are been doing the work for awhile so they could show my students.
00:15:59 Speaker 2
You could show my call.
00:16:00 Speaker 2
Think that there’s other ways, right? Like like, you don’t have to be just a quote, unquote therapist, and never think about podcasts, right?
00:16:08 Speaker 2
You don’t. You don’t have to be just the person who, yeah, you know and and give it a try, right? Like nothing that thing worse is going to happen if you.
00:16:10 Speaker 1
Outside the box, yeah.
00:16:10 Speaker 1
Outside the box.
00:16:17 Speaker 2
If you don’t try it right and you start trying to maybe fail.
00:16:18 Speaker 1
Right experiment keep open mind, yeah.
00:16:18 Speaker 1
Experiment, keep open mind yeah.
00:16:21 Speaker 2
Big time, right? And you know, you don’t expect to Fast forward and be Joe Rogan also, right? You know Fast forward and beat somebody.
00:16:28 Speaker 1
Right?
00:16:28 Speaker 1
00:16:28 Speaker 2
That’s right, you gotta put in the work right like I think I I don’t see too much of its content, but I do see clips or whatever and I’ll say like I don’t know, episode 2800 or whatever number, is that right?
00:16:39 Speaker 2
That just means that’s how many hours times whatever prep, work times whatever. This one person has done for their one crash, right? So same thing, right? Same thing for.
00:16:48 Speaker 2
For any of us who want Excel in our Warcraft.
00:16:53 Speaker 1
Absolutely, so yeah. Again, a very powerful message. I’m wondering what was the turning point for you like?
00:17:00 Speaker 1
Whether that was kind of a hurdle or a point where you said OK, I was. I was going this direction, but now I’m going to pivot this way.
00:17:08 Speaker 1
This is what I need to chase.
00:17:10 Speaker 2
Yeah, interesting ’cause you know it’s always by
00:17:13 Speaker 2
kind of circumstance, right? Like when I when I came back from San Jose State I, I met my now wife over there, but my girlfriend and we moved down here to LA and we came here so I came back to LA for love, right?
00:17:28 Speaker 2
So I kind of follow her back and then all my connection. Yes, all my connections were where in Saturday.
00:17:29 Speaker 1
Good reason.
00:17:33 Speaker 2
Stayed and so I came back and then I realized man OK if what’s the bigger picture that I want to do?
00:17:40 Speaker 2
I want to be so narrow minded that I only want to teach and I only want to teach high schoolers and social studies or whatever that was and if so then I had to chase that really hard.
00:17:51 Speaker 2
But I realized that I want to empower people right? So that I make it like the denominator is sort of bigger, and then when I was doing the gang stuff and I was doing more nonprofit work, I said, OK, well, what’s my next level and what’s really the basic denominator?
00:18:04 Speaker 2
OK, now I want to empower communities. So then it’s at the master part.
00:18:09 Speaker 2
And then it was like well then.
00:18:11 Speaker 2
I’ve been doing that for a little while. What’s the next step? What is the most common one? And it was always like opportunity because of work opportunity because people are coming like needing my help or my service.
00:18:23 Speaker 2
And that’s kind of how I started. The consulting stuff is that people would ask me similar work, right? Hey, can you help me do this?
00:18:29 Speaker 2
Hey, you’re really good at that. I saw you this in this conference or whatever, so like if people are asking me I I gotta start monetizing this. You know, I gotta start figuring out how do I make this a package and how do I.
00:18:39 Speaker 2
Excel with my powers and and it’s. It’s always been a paying attention to what people are telling my strains have, but also be really honest with myself and that that’s what I want our approach. That’s what I wanted, connects and.
00:18:52 Speaker 2
And of course, I’m giving you the Super Cliff versions right there, playing nights when I’m like.
00:18:54 Speaker 1
Well of course, yeah it’s always more complicated when you.
00:18:57 Speaker 1
Open up the hood, yeah?
00:18:57 Speaker 1
Open up the hood.
00:18:58 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and there was definitely sleepless nights and all that good stuff but in the end it’s like.
00:19:07 Speaker 2
What’s what would I really want to get out of this? And then what is being offered to me in that moment in time to go for it right? The feature exactly?
00:19:14 Speaker 1
So you were listening. Now you’re listening to the needs and you’re thinking well.
00:19:17 Speaker 1
This is obviously there’s some repetition here. You know what people are asking, there’s, uh, you know. How do I meet this need on a larger scale?
00:19:24 Speaker 1
And I think coaching that makes sense. Packaging something, repurposing it, creating something that people can find right more easily.
00:19:33 Speaker 1
00:19:34 Speaker 1
Was that process anxiety provoking for you? Because that requires a lot of a lot of fortitude in terms of putting yourself out there.
00:19:42 Speaker 1
You know, and having the confidence to put your name on something like that.
00:19:46 Speaker 2
Yeah, I I’ll answer in two ways. One is is the thrill of like meeting somebody new pitching an idea dissecting any problem that’s fun for me to be honest like that’s super exciting and that’s thrilling. It’s anxiety because you don’t know where you’re going to go, right?
00:20:03 Speaker 2
But that’s, I think, where what people most think about, like I don’t. I wouldn’t even know how to go do XYZ. But for me I bigger, more of a core of like.
00:20:13 Speaker 2
OK, if I really go venture and really do the consulting firm 100% if I don’t have a plan.
00:20:20 Speaker 2
A right my full time job or teaching or like can I really feed my kids with this right? ’cause I really like so so I bring it down to that level and that creates a bit more anxiety to be honest as compare as compared to the first one of like.
00:20:30 Speaker 1
Oh sure.
00:20:34 Speaker 2
Oh man, I don’t know how to pitch this in the board. Isn’t there like that that I’ll figure out ’cause I’ll have to write. It’s more of like.
00:20:38 Speaker 1
00:20:40 Speaker 2
And that’s kind of what happened to us, Patrick a year or so ago when we formally began silagra a lot of folks that we had kind of in queue to do a program with those or propose or whatever, just asked us to hold and say, you know what?
00:20:54 Speaker 2
We gotta figure this out and we’re not spending any money on consultants etc. Even though we have kind of been.
00:21:00 Speaker 2
Setting up and be ready to to kind of launch.
00:21:04 Speaker 2
I don’t know, maybe 6-7 months when it was just kind of a dry spell and that we had to really reinvent.
00:21:09 Speaker 2
Is it just projects we’re doing as an individual coaching we’re doing as a group coaching, right? So we hit our.
00:21:14 Speaker 2
We had to innovate and I think that was our mantra for ourselves. But whenever we met somebody we said hey you got innovate right? You gotta if you’re not set up for online.
00:21:24 Speaker 2
What can you do that gets you as close to it as you can right hachigo hybrid? Or how do you do it? Because honestly, if you don’t innovate, you’re going to sink big time. Doesn’t matter what size you are.
00:21:35 Speaker 2
Individual or nonprofit, you know?
00:21:38 Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean so you definitely had to kind of recreate your.
00:21:42 Speaker 1
Your business framework, your approach. Uhm, how you would market your services.
00:21:52 Speaker 1
What is it So what does it look like now? Silegra
00:21:55 Speaker 2
Have a great question. I think it looks like we’re going back to some people who we already had proposals queued up.
00:21:55
00:22:02 Speaker 2
We’re going back to some people are saying, you know what we’re about to open, but we want to remain doing hybrid like how do we end up doing both?
00:22:09 Speaker 2
Can you can you look at our capacity? Could we look at any new ways we could onboard people?
00:22:15 Speaker 2
Or onboard systems. And we do that.
00:22:17 Speaker 2
But we’re also kind of lately been in the in the eval bids where folks are saying we we just flew the plane in the past year and a half.
00:22:27 Speaker 2
But how can we capture some things that we did well so we can move forward? So we’re doing some.
00:22:31 Speaker 2
Eval support there.
00:22:33 Speaker 2
And just like everybody, to be honest, they’re kind of on a you know 50 or 4th year first year situation because they go they speed up they they hire, they let go and you know, I think it we’re going back to some training coach humility.
00:22:48 Speaker 2
Burnout leadership management. It’s just, you know, at some point your leaders.
00:22:52 Speaker 2
Or not, just yours, but every leader is like ready to say, OK, I I need a break right? I I need to figure out what’s going on with my own situation before I say let’s all come back.
00:23:03 Speaker 2
Given the pandemic, right? Like there’s a lot of.
00:23:05 Speaker 2
People who have.
00:23:08 Speaker 2
Taken a whole different way of self-care and are thinking about it a whole different way. It’s not just.
00:23:13 Speaker 2
Is it the right price is going to be the right like distances is the right population that I work with? I mean there’s a lot.
00:23:19 Speaker 2
Of people are going through and yeah.
00:23:22 Speaker 2
So we’re just kind of listening and we’re just trying to take on projects that are that are successful that we’ve done before, but also more on the on the track that we like doing the innovation piece of seeking people of color and and I get to that small to midsize organizations.
00:23:37 Speaker 1
Yeah, so I’m curious is your is is your business now more about B to B where you’re you’re basically doing more program.
00:23:47 Speaker 1
You’re analyzing other programs.
00:23:49 Speaker 1
Evaluation for other, you know other companies? Or are you doing more consumer based?
00:23:55 Speaker 1
00:23:56 Speaker 2
It’s definitely more B2B. Lately that seems to be where most of our requests have come in. I I personally enjoy that sort of, you know myself, and going to the consumer. But right now we just define the consumer as the leader, as the DRI stuff, right?
00:24:16 Speaker 2
That’s who our target folks are, as opposed to going into the youth, right? Or going to the parent or going to the foster youth.
00:24:21 Speaker 1
00:24:25 Speaker 2
But, like we’re taking it, sort of to the provider side, and that seems to be heavy working late.
00:24:31 Speaker 2
Yeah yeah, there is. I don’t know better or worse but they’re as much needed in that field that as in everybody else so.
00:24:38 Speaker 1
Oh, of course.
00:24:39 Speaker 2
Yeah, they’re ready and they’re earning for it.
00:24:40 Speaker 2
You know?
00:24:40 Speaker 2
00:24:42 Speaker 1
Yeah, excellent, so that’s I mean, it’s quite a journey. You know where you where you are now, from where you were.
00:24:50 Speaker 1
What would you like to see happen next? Like where do you? Where do you see your your business going?
00:24:56 Speaker 2
Great question come, we know we have these chats. Kind of my partner and my business partner and I have these weekly checkins where we say OK well we have this operating this opportunity and you know I I do want to get comfortable where we’re not, quote unquote chasing requests anymore, doing four or five or puzzles for one to hit right?
00:25:16 Speaker 2
Like just like everybody, right? We want to be as stable as possible.
00:25:21 Speaker 2
So we definitely want to be following our own recommendations, right? So that we’re not over burning ourselves and all that.
00:25:29 Speaker 2
But honestly, I think I think.
00:25:31 Speaker 2
There is an opportunity to work in the diversity equity inclusion space you know there. There’s a lot of requests.
00:25:38 Speaker 2
There’s a lot of director of this coming out. There’s like 4 profit companies that put in this I, I think that there’s an opportunity for us social workers, people of color to be in those roles or be an advisor, or be in some sort of.
00:25:51 Speaker 2
Formulating that program or else to be honest, it’s gonna feel more the same. You know it’s gonna feel more like a uh?
00:25:59 Speaker 2
And not to talk bad about social, corporate or social corporate enterprises, right? But it’ll feel more of that right. Let’s go to the soup, kitchen, Thanksgiving, and then the rest of the year, nothing occurs.
00:26:11 Speaker 1
Right just for shine or to scratch an edge, and you know.
00:26:12 Speaker 2
Right so yeah.
00:26:14 Speaker 2
Or just like a check box, you know, yeah, so I want to be more in that space. Yeah, kind of down the top comment.
00:26:15
00:26:20 Speaker 1
Line, so I wonder if you could paint a picture of kind of what?
00:26:21
00:26:24 Speaker 1
Equity would look like or.
00:26:26 Speaker 1
What what’s your, you know?
00:26:27 Speaker 1
What’s the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow in terms of your mission?
00:26:31 Speaker 2
00:26:34
00:26:36 Speaker 2
You know it’s it’s. It’s hard to put it in a sentence or so, but if there was a.
00:26:43 Speaker 2
Uh, next big gig or next big project. That would be amazing, but it would be to really.
00:26:48 Speaker 2
See and how could we be a support for a large company like a Disney or like something that really has a hands in everything right? Manufacturing media, right? Like it’s really immense and it has cruises and it has.
00:27:03 Speaker 2
My girl there watching a movie is right so so has entertainment has everything has a lot of value to it.
00:27:09 Speaker 2
I could just only imagine if they really you know more behind something that I was all encompassing and really talked to. Their employees got a pulse of the community that they were serving and.
00:27:21 Speaker 2
Of course it is a company or of course it’s going to be bottom line, dollar making et cetera, right? But how much impact did that really happen as opposed to to?
00:27:31 Speaker 2
I don’t know doing 4 or 5K Mickey walks right like I’m not talking about Mickey walks, right?
00:27:36 Speaker 2
But like is that money that service going to be as impactful as opposed to them starting a coding for girls system that was going to be directly going to right like there’s a lot of potential partnerships that they could occur. They could have at that scale.
00:27:51 Speaker 2
Right, so sure you know that that would be the pot of gold that will be that magic wand. If I can make it happen tomorrow, right?
00:27:59 Speaker 2
Yeah, I, I think hopefully we’re going to be there, but it just takes a little while. It honestly takes a bit more experiences to know the space to know the lingo, to know the players ’cause.
00:28:09 Speaker 2
You know manufacturing versus parks versus media versus radio? I mean like they’re all going to have different.
00:28:16 Speaker 2
Ways of analyzing their own needs, you know?
00:28:19 Speaker 1
Seems like that would be probably the most complex hurdle in this business is.
00:28:24
00:28:25 Speaker 1
Learning how to get the attention right of these.
00:28:30 Speaker 1
The heads of these companies that you’re pitching to, you know, just to just get time to effect change or to get some buy in, right?
00:28:38 Speaker 2
Yeah yeah, and I think I because I I don’t. I’m not sure that I’ve seen it happen. Maybe. Maybe like where it came.
00:28:45 Speaker 2
Kind of top down like Patagonia or or somebody Apple initiatives or the whole going green type things but there’s definitely more right? There’s definitely more that each of those companies could do and.
00:28:58 Speaker 2
From access to expenses to to everything you know.
00:29:04 Speaker 2
So big old big pot of gold there.
00:29:07 Speaker 1
Yeah, fascinating work. I mean, it seems like you can go in so many directions when you’re talking about glass ceilings.
00:29:14 Speaker 2
00:29:14 Speaker 1
Upward mobility minority groups. I mean you know the micro minority groups gender. I mean it just goes on and on, and thinking 11 population to serve or one particular goal within across the populations you know, do you go a mile wide and an inch deep or do you go to you know?
00:29:23 Speaker 2
Yeah yeah, the list is infinite.
00:29:33 Speaker 2
Right?
00:29:33 Speaker 1
An inch wide mile deep, you know, in terms of of who you serve and how you go about it, seems like to me that in the work that you’re doing, that would probably be the most daunting thing, unless you absolutely know this is the one particular need of this one population that I’m really trying to.
00:29:50 Speaker 2
Yeah no, no. I I I hear you and it’s difficult like in my my heart changes overtime and every new news story comes out and every like it just it molds to the times.
00:30:02 Speaker 2
But I do have a soft spot for people that grew up in Boyle Heights, just ’cause that’s where I grew up, right?
00:30:07 Speaker 2
Those soft spot for people who are Latino and and people who are first Gen right but that that soft spot is only as as endearing as kind of like their attitude and they wanted these two to kind of put the work in so you know that’s.
00:30:21 Speaker 2
That’s kind of who my. My bottom line goes to right like that’s where my heart belongs to, right?
00:30:28 Speaker 1
Absolutely, and certainly youth who are not given the same opportunities for whatever reasons you know, via socioeconomic issues, minority issues, Democrat.
00:30:35
00:30:40 Speaker 1
Fix logistics.
00:30:43 Speaker 1
Oftentimes they don’t even know what their options are like. I see how the education is a huge piece in terms of even understanding. You know from junior high on, like what?
00:30:46 Speaker 2
00:30:53 Speaker 2
00:30:54 Speaker 1
You know, because maybe their parent you know nobody in her family ever gone to college or they don’t know what that looks like or what a career track looks like, where the fact that college doesn’t necessarily guarantee you a degree or other grazing guarantee you a job or a career.
00:31:07 Speaker 2
Right or it’s an obsolete degree, right? Like if you want to go to nursing, you could also go to a vocational school like it’s not always.
00:31:15 Speaker 1
It’s not always equal.
00:31:15 Speaker 2
No, no, no, it’s not always equal and as accessible in in every place in in every neighborhood you know.
00:31:24 Speaker 1
Yeah, so I. I think it’s fantastic that you’re doing what you’re doing. You know you. You positioned yourself to help.
00:31:33 Speaker 1
You know these populations is a fantastic.
00:31:37 Speaker 1
Service that you’re doing. And yeah, absolutely. And while I may not be, you know, a minority in that sense, I I am in social work from a guy.
00:31:39 Speaker 2
I appreciate that, thank you.
00:31:48 Speaker 2
Right, right?
00:31:49 Speaker 1
But I I I did come from a very unorthodox.
00:31:53 Speaker 1
Background poverty, that kind of thing. And I was the first one in my family to go to college and I don’t think anybody expected me to finish high school so.
00:32:00 Speaker 2
Yeah, so there you go. So so first.
00:32:01 Speaker 1
I had to. I had to figure thumb my way through it, you know, and it was pretty messy.
00:32:06 Speaker 1
00:32:06 Speaker 2
Yeah, first generous have like this unspoken talk like I know where you’re talking, like what you just shared or like, I get it right like it’s difficult and it’s hard to explain to the next Gen, right?
00:32:11 Speaker 1
00:32:16 Speaker 2
It’s hard to explain. You know it’s not that whole. When I was a kid I would walk 40 miles of snow like it’s not that type of talk. It’s more of like like when you’re sitting in a classroom and and they ask.
00:32:23 Speaker 2
You know?
00:32:23 Speaker 2
00:32:28 Speaker 2
About something you you just kind of go into this whole mindset of like.
00:32:31 Speaker 2
Oh man, am I supposed to know that the when, when did he teach that right? Like it’s? It’s those instances it is, uh?
00:32:34 Speaker 1
Right, yeah?
00:32:38 Speaker 1
That reflected appraisal constant. Looking at yourself, you’re being judged or less than right, or someone going to find out you’re a.
00:32:40 Speaker 2
Based on vector.
00:32:44 Speaker 1
Fraud, yeah, kind of.
00:32:46 Speaker 2
Time Patrick. The first time I I owned like a version of a jacket or a warm coat was when I went to college like I lived here in LA my whole entire life, right?
00:32:47
00:32:55 Speaker 2
So what does it get? 72 or 69 sometimes right? Like? So when I went to the Bay Area I said 58 or 57. I was like I think I need something, you know.
00:32:57 Speaker 1
I know, huh?
00:33:06 Speaker 2
Tougher here and I had to go buy injectors and then like those things.
00:33:10 Speaker 2
First generous get right like or wait for somebody first told me, oh where’s your accent from? And I was like, oh man LA.
00:33:17 Speaker 2
Is that an accent? That is, that? Is that a place like you get accent, so then it was like no, no. But where are you from?
00:33:18 Speaker 1
Right?
00:33:22 Speaker 2
And it was like these questions that were never asked for me before, because everybody that was around me was from the same place, right? Like I know your dad.
00:33:30 Speaker 2
I know your mom and right, but it was when I left and what I called the four-block radius when I left at four block radius is where I realized, oh man, I’m a I am a little fish in this bigger world, right? Like and that’s fine and I’m.
00:33:42 Speaker 2
OK with that, but.
00:33:44 Speaker 2
But yeah, it’s really a big world.
00:33:46
00:33:47 Speaker 1
Yeah, most definitely. I think when I reflect on the fact that I never even stepped foot in the classroom until college, I never had a teacher.
00:33:54 Speaker 1
Not once, you know raised in RV parks moving around that kind of thing, like I was pseudo homeschooled. You know, to a large point and I, I just think, I reflect on that sometimes.
00:34:03 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:07 Speaker 1
What that was like, you know, and having not had direction, how much it would have been nice to have a social worker or a nonprofit or some kind of system that I was exposed to that kind of showed you know, prepared me for.
00:34:20 Speaker 1
Sure what to expect I, I think that’s oftentimes taken for granted.
00:34:26 Speaker 2
Yeah, I had a local kind of boys and Girls Club in my area. Unfortunately it was two big streets over where two kind of gangs were always going back and forth.
00:34:37 Speaker 2
So in order for me to get to the safe place out across a couple of non-safe places. So I just decided to retreat. I just started being home or I decided to go elsewhere.
00:34:42 Speaker 1
00:34:47 Speaker 2
Around the neighborhood. That wasn’t going to be so. A lot of folks did get that support like a boy and girls clubs or maybe a church around the place, but it was always like I had it. Like literally mind map. OK if I cross these two streets.
00:34:59 Speaker 2
Well, that’s that. Risk is not worth going over there, right? So let me stay on this side. So yeah, I agree with you.
00:35:04 Speaker 1
Right, yeah?
00:35:07 Speaker 1
Yeah, very well yeah.
00:35:09 Speaker 2
That’s awesome Patrick. And what about it when you first kind of stepped in the in the classroom you were mentioning?
00:35:16 Speaker 2
Was there a lot of self-doubt on on your own capabilities like it was the only self-problem? Could I do this?
00:35:20 Speaker 1
Oh yeah.
00:35:23 Speaker 1
Course I I didn’t know what it was to have deadlines.
00:35:27 Speaker 1
Projects you know? I mean, from the very most basic thing I don’t think ever owned a planner. Until then, you know I didn’t know how to how to organize my notes. I didn’t and there are so many things I just wasn’t accustomed to.
00:35:30 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:38 Speaker 2
Right?
00:35:39 Speaker 1
Even advocating myself to a teacher, you know, and there’s some you know, time you know.
00:35:44 Speaker 1
Yeah, studying for tests at you know certain timelines, ’cause there was everything was through correspondence up until that point and there was very little.
00:35:52 Speaker 1
Restrains in that sense.
00:35:54 Speaker 1
So yeah, it was definitely, but at the same time the interesting things I loved like I was so thirsty for structure ’cause I had no structure growing up.
00:36:02
Got it.
00:36:03 Speaker 2
Got it.
00:36:03 Speaker 1
None like 0 practically, so the the fact that college offered structure I think is was a huge pro. You know, as I was willing to adjust, I was.
00:36:14 Speaker 1
Anxious to adjust too.
00:36:15 Speaker 2
It was like a welcoming instruction like you were.
00:36:17 Speaker 2
Ready for that, yeah?
00:36:20 Speaker 1
Interesting how you know your background plays a part into how we how we take on challenges and how we adapt.
00:36:26 Speaker 2
No big time and I’ve always shared that in class or even in colleagues that you could have twins same house, same birthdays and everything.
00:36:35 Speaker 2
Potentially seeing genetic type, right, but it’s two different experiences, right? They’re just molded to different, and that’s kind of that whole ancient debate, right?
00:36:46 Speaker 2
Nature versus nurture. And you know, I, I think it’s half right. It’s half of what you have genetically. You know that good stuff, but it’s also.
00:36:53 Speaker 2
Uh, your your lived experience and when you go through, etc like it’s not and or it’s a bolt.
00:36:56 Speaker 1
Oh, certainly.
00:37:00 Speaker 1
I think to how we in you know our schema, how we.
00:37:03 Speaker 1
Internalize our experiences versus see them as opportunities, or how malleable we view the world is right versus how fixed. But those challenges are right.
00:37:15 Speaker 1
Yeah, so I again I just you know I have a special place in my heart for the work you’re doing in terms of being a voice for those who would not otherwise, even though they needed a voice.
00:37:26 Speaker 2
Right, yeah, yeah no, no, no. Likewise. And I think what I most recently have been joining lately is supporting students who are bound to venture out.
00:37:36 Speaker 2
’cause I teach primarily Graduate School, but it’s students who are about to go get their quote unquote, first professional job. So up until then there.
00:37:44 Speaker 2
I don’t know baristas, or you know they were maybe in the Human Services, but they were.
00:37:48 Speaker 2
The the Screener or the OR the case manager right, like they always felt like their work wasn’t as a par with a therapist or a director or whatever, and I challenged that often.
00:37:58 Speaker 2
I said, you know, you’re gonna have a lot more keys to that car to the house that you think, like when you get in there, you’re gonna be like oh man, I renew your stuff I just call it something else right? Or I just experience it differently.
00:38:06 Speaker 1
Right, right, right.
00:38:06 Speaker 1
Right, right?
00:38:08 Speaker 2
Or now that I have both perspectives, I get to throw in a whole new, fresh way of doing things.
00:38:14 Speaker 2
And so, so yeah, that that’s lately what I’ve been really enjoying and seeing people, ah, ha moments, and those light bulbs and asking them, hey, keep it on or keep it in the back because you’re going you’re going to use that fairly soon.
00:38:26 Speaker 1
Absolutely, that’s great advice.
00:38:29 Speaker 1
So I’m wondering, you know, for any of those who are listening or watching this interview.
00:38:36 Speaker 1
What would you impart to them in terms of Nuggets of wisdom, like? What would you have them take away from your experience? Your mission?
00:38:44 Speaker 2
00:38:46 Speaker 2
I think two things. One is being OK with listening to yourself and listening to what are your strengths or where you’re good at.
00:38:55 Speaker 2
There’s a. There’s a fixed mindset that we have that we have to be this XYZ type person by this age.
00:39:00 Speaker 2
By this career path. But you know, but just really listen to the journey and see where you’re at at shift pivot.
00:39:08 Speaker 2
You know, down, gear, up gear, whatever you need to be doing, but just be listening to it because there’s a reason why you’re in that path.
00:39:14 Speaker 2
00:39:15 Speaker 2
And again, if you quote unquote, make the wrong choice, you’ll never know what the right choice is going to be anyways, right?
00:39:21 Speaker 2
So once you made that choice, that’s it like stick to that. I keep going because I I think that’s better than dwelling on.
00:39:29 Speaker 2
Why should have? I could have? I didn’t do it right or I’m too old and beyond whatever. Those like little voices.
00:39:35 Speaker 2
So just kind of push through and keep going.
00:39:38 Speaker 2
The the second big nugget, hopefully is. I’m sharing as much as I can, but definitely be able to pull up somebody with you, right?
00:39:46 Speaker 2
Whether it’s a family member or whether it’s a colleague or a student of yours or whatever you’re able to do.
00:39:53 Speaker 2
Whoever you were able to influence is just pull up somebody with you because one they’re going to make you better and then two.
00:39:59 Speaker 2
You’re just making it that much better, right? You? You’re splitting the pie a bit more than just, you know, kind of selfishly taking that operational just for the glory of it, just for that, ’cause there’s definitely enough work to go out there.
00:40:11 Speaker 2
There’s definitely enough for me to go out there. There’s no reason why it should just be you, right? So those two things I think I. I hope people are.
00:40:19 Speaker 2
Kind of just not listening to him do, but I don’t see how I’m doing it right like that that they see that I do it in my in my consulting work that I see that I do when I’m teaching so that I’m modeling it and not just saying it in cool interviews, right? That that it’s actually happening.
00:40:34 Speaker 1
I love that. Remember that saying that you know no one, no one’s better until we’re all better, right? Yeah, I probably slaughtered that quote.
00:40:39 Speaker 2
Oh that’s awesome. Yeah yeah, yeah, so it’s.
00:40:39 Speaker 2
Oh that’s awesome. Yeah, so it’s.
00:40:44 Speaker 2
But I but I got the gist and I think the other one that I it’s similar to it, right?
00:40:48 Speaker 2
But if you want to go far, go by yourself, right? But if you sorry if you want to go fast, go by yourself.
00:40:53 Speaker 2
If you want to.
00:40:54 Speaker 2
Go far, take people with you right? ’cause because fast is what we think, right?
00:40:55 Speaker 1
I love that yes, yes.
00:40:59 Speaker 2
I want that that fast job or that high paying job or I want whatever that is right and.
00:41:00 Speaker 2
Job that.
00:41:00 Speaker 2
00:41:04 Speaker 2
Cool, you might get there, right? But how many people are you going to step over?
00:41:07 Speaker 2
Right just to get that right? Or how many yeah or how many relationships you’re gonna lose or XYZ, right?
00:41:08 Speaker 1
Be the first one, yeah?
00:41:14 Speaker 2
But if you want to go a little further than that one big job, right? If you want to be owner if you want to like run two or three things and take more people with you right? Or learn from people or it’s OK to people ahead.
00:41:26 Speaker 2
Of you right, yeah?
00:41:26 Speaker 2
Of you right?
00:41:27 Speaker 2
It’ll be fine, you know.
00:41:28 Speaker 1
Absolutely, it’s a group effort.
00:41:30 Speaker 1
Well, I love that. So where can our listeners find more out about you? Or can they any website? Any social media?
00:41:39 Speaker 2
Yes please. I’ll plug you our website. Our website is WWW.
00:41:46 Speaker 2
Sorry.org and the play out word there. It’s my first name backwards. It’s on Haley’s backwards.
00:41:54 Speaker 2
Forever and ever and ever. Because I have a, uh, sort of Spanish name, right? People couldn’t stay at Haley’s, but they could succeed. Legler and I always.
00:42:02 Speaker 2
Thought it was interesting.
00:42:02 Speaker 2
Thought it interesting.
00:42:02 Speaker 1
I was wondering where that name came from.
00:42:04 Speaker 2
’cause the negative to me sounds harder to say, right? It doesn’t really mean anything. They have like a empty thing.
00:42:09 Speaker 2
But people got it right, so it rolls off the tag. It doesn’t feel threatening as at Haley, sorry so you could find me there.
00:42:11 Speaker 1
00:42:17 Speaker 2
But also our all our handles are at. See Lego dot underscore org so if you want to follow us on Instagram, Facebook.
00:42:24 Speaker 2
Link then we’re pretty Instagram and LinkedIn with more sort of active on those. We have Twitter and all that but and those tend to be where we have most of our exchanges and most were posting so yeah, please carefully follow.
00:42:35 Speaker 1
I’ll definitely link up all of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:38
OK.
00:42:40 Speaker 1
Super thank you so much. It’s been an honor. I was wondering would it be OK if I did a follow up down the road, see how things are going?
00:42:47 Speaker 2
Yes, of course. Of course. Please repeat this. Let’s chat a year, three years, five years from now. Let’s see how, how much Disney you heard this podcast, right? Or let’s see how.
00:42:51 Speaker 1
Yeah so.
00:42:54 Speaker 1
Ah hey well Disney if you’re listening.
00:42:55 Speaker 2
Far we went.
00:42:59 Speaker 2
He’s a podcaster already.
00:43:00 Speaker 1
You need an executive coach.
00:43:02 Speaker 2
00:43:04 Speaker 2
Appreciate that. Thank you, Patrick, for having me on and good luck with everything and please please support Patrick and all the great work he’s doing as well.
00:43:11 Speaker 1
Well, you wouldn’t be too. You wouldn’t mind if Google picked you up there, right?
00:43:15 Speaker 1
No, thank you.
00:43:16
Now Google is good, right?
00:43:18 Speaker 1
Is that good for the algorithm? Google, Google, Google?
00:43:21 Speaker 2
I think you could say three times and then you do clap twice. I heard or other.
00:43:25 Speaker 1
Right?
00:43:27 Speaker 1
All right, OK, absolutely pleasure.
00:43:28 Speaker 2
Alright, thank you. Well maybe it’s like maybe it’s like the Nintendo Wii have to hold something for a long time and supposed to be pressing. Maybe we’re doing something wrong.
00:43:35 Speaker 1
All right, hi like a secret.
00:43:39 Speaker 2
Like a cheat code we don’t know yet.
00:43:40 Speaker 1
I know, huh?
00:43:42 Speaker 1
But the world we live.
00:43:43 Speaker 2
In I know thank you, Patrick.
00:43:43 Speaker 2
I know.
00:43:43 Speaker 2
00:43:45 Speaker 1
It’s an honor and a privilege to talk with you. I I wish you all the best. Enjoy your day your week and I’ll check with you down the road, OK?
00:43:50
Right?
00:43:53 Speaker 2
Great thank you Ben. Have a great day. Bye.
00:43:54 Speaker 1
Alright, thank you too.
00:44:00 Speaker 1
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