Unveiling Serial Killer Minds: Dr. Mike Caparelli on “Monster Mirror” with David Berkowitz
In this gripping episode of The Mental Health Toolbox podcast, delve into the chilling depths of the human psyche as Dr. Mike Caparelli, acclaimed author of “Monster Mirror: 100 Hours with David Berkowitz, Once Known as Son of Sam,” shares his unparalleled insights into the mind of one of America’s most notorious serial killers.
As a respected behavioral scientist and professed Christian, Dr. Caparelli offers a unique perspective on the enigmatic persona of David Berkowitz, famously known as the Son of Sam. Through 100 hours of intensive interviews, Dr. Caparelli unraveled layers of complexity surrounding Berkowitz’s motives, behaviors, and the broader implications for understanding serial killers.
Join us as we explore the intersection of faith, psychology, and criminology, uncovering the haunting truths behind Berkowitz’s actions and the profound lessons gleaned from Dr. Caparelli’s groundbreaking research.
Whether you’re a true crime enthusiast, mental health professional, or simply curious about the darkest corners of the human mind, this episode on a serial killer spotlight promises to be a riveting journey into the psyche of a serial killer and the remarkable insights offered by Dr. Mike Caparelli.
Tune in now to unlock the secrets of the “Monster Mirror” and gain a deeper understanding of the complexities surrounding serial killers like the infamous Son of Sam.
Table of Contents
In this episode of The Mental Health Toolbox, we explore:
- The Nature of Evil: Delve into the complex and multifaceted nature of evil as discussed in “Monster Mirror,” examining how Dr. Mike Caparelli navigates questions of morality and the depths of human depravity through his interactions with David Berkowitz.
- Psychological Profiling of a Serial Killer: Uncover the psychological insights provided in “Monster Mirror,” as Dr. Caparelli offers a deep dive into the psyche of David Berkowitz, exploring his upbringing, experiences, and personality traits that may have contributed to his violent behavior.
- Faith, Forgiveness, and Redemption: Explore the intersection of faith and psychology in “Monster Mirror,” as Dr. Caparelli grapples with themes of forgiveness, redemption, and the possibility of transformation in his interactions with Berkowitz, highlighting the power of empathy and understanding in fostering healing.
- Humanizing the Monster: Discuss how “Monster Mirror” humanizes David Berkowitz by offering a nuanced portrayal of his personality and experiences, reminding listeners that even the most heinous criminals are complex individuals shaped by their pasts and circumstances.
- Insights into Criminology: Examine the valuable insights provided in “Monster Mirror” into the field of criminology, as Dr. Caparelli sheds light on the psychological and sociological dynamics underlying criminal behavior, emphasizing the importance of understanding these factors in confronting acts of violence and evil.
- The Power of Empathy and Understanding: Reflect on the power of empathy and understanding showcased in “Monster Mirror,” as Dr. Caparelli demonstrates the importance of compassion and human connection in his interactions with Berkowitz, underscoring the potential for healing and transformation even in the face of darkness.
- Journey into Behavioral Science: Explore Dr. Mike Caparelli’s journey into the field of behavioral science and his interest in criminal psychology, delving into the experiences and influences that shaped his career path and research interests.
- Inspiration Behind “Monster Mirror”: Examine the inspiration behind Dr. Caparelli’s decision to write “Monster Mirror” and delve into the mind of David Berkowitz, also known as the Son of Sam, discussing the motivations and goals driving his exploration of this dark and complex subject matter.
- Faith and Exploration of Dark Subjects: Reflect on how Dr. Caparelli reconciles his faith as a professed Christian with the exploration of dark and disturbing subjects like serial killers, considering the ethical and moral considerations that arise in his work.
- Surprising Discoveries in his Interview with a serial killer: We discuss some of the most surprising or enlightening discoveries Dr. Caparelli made during his 100 hours of interviews with David Berkowitz, reflecting on the insights gained and their implications for understanding criminal behavior.
- Understanding Evil in “Monster Mirror”: Examine Dr. Caparelli’s discussion of the concept of evil and its manifestations in “Monster Mirror,” exploring his definition of evil and how his understanding of it influences his work in criminal psychology and behavioral science.
- Psychological Patterns in Berkowitz: Elaboration on any specific psychological or behavioral patterns observed in David Berkowitz during Dr. Caparelli’s interactions with him, analyzing how these patterns contribute to our understanding of Berkowitz’s motives and actions.
- Balance Between Empathy and Objectivity: We explore Dr. Caparelli’s approach to balancing empathy and objectivity when studying and interacting with individuals who have committed heinous crimes, considering the ethical dilemmas and challenges involved in maintaining professional detachment while also acknowledging the humanity of the individual.
- Insights from “Monster Mirror”: Reflecting on the insights and lessons Dr. Caparelli hopes readers will gain from “Monster Mirror,” both in terms of understanding criminal behavior and grappling with larger existential questions about morality, faith, and the nature of evil.
- Ethical Considerations in Research: We discuss the ethical considerations and challenges Dr. Caparelli faced while conducting his research and writing “Monster Mirror,” exploring how he navigated sensitive topics and interactions with subjects involved in criminal activities.
- Broader Societal and Systemic Issues: We consider the broader societal and systemic issues contributing to the emergence of serial killers beyond David Berkowitz, exploring Dr. Caparelli’s perspectives on the root causes of such phenomena and potential strategies for effective intervention and prevention.
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BIO: Dr. Mike Caparreli, Ph.D.
Dr. Mike Caparelli is a respected behavioral scientist, author, and host of The Mental Health Toolbox podcast. With a passion for understanding the complexities of human behavior, Dr. Caparelli has dedicated his career to exploring the intersection of faith, psychology, and criminology.
He holds advanced degrees in psychology and theology, blending his expertise in these fields to offer a unique perspective on topics ranging from mental health and spirituality to criminal psychology and forensic science.
Dr. Caparelli’s latest book, “Monster Mirror: 100 Hours with David Berkowitz, Once Known as Son of Sam,” offers a gripping account of his extensive interviews with the infamous serial killer, delving into the depths of Berkowitz’s psyche and exploring the broader implications for understanding criminal behavior.
As a professed Christian, Dr. Caparelli brings a compassionate and empathetic approach to his work, seeking to humanize even the most notorious criminals while shedding light on the psychological and societal factors that shape their actions.
Through his writing, speaking engagements, and podcast, Dr. Caparelli aims to foster meaningful conversations about mental health, morality, and the complexities of the human experience, inspiring listeners to seek understanding, empathy, and healing in a world marked by darkness and suffering.
Learn More About: Dr. Mike Caparelli and His Interview With Serial Killer, David Berkowitz
CONTACT AND SOCIALS:
-📣 Get The Book: Monster Mirror: 100 Hours with David Berkowitz, Once Known as Son of Sam: https://amzn.to/3PVhQUO
-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mike.caparrelli.1/
-Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cappyphd/
-Lin: ttps://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-caparrelli-104249298/
Watch The Interview
If you liked this episode, be sure to check out my full playlist of interviews here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnPL9gahfhWatKmy2YSyU0jt20h_jrj3H
Listen To The Interview
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TRANSCRIPT:
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
All right. Welcome to the mental health toolbox. I’m Patrick, your host, and today we have a special treat for you. We are talking with Doctor Mike Capparelli’s, doctor and behavioral science. And who is a former pastor and speaks around 18 states in the country on criminal psychology. Behavioral science, mental health. And so he’s our expert today and he has had the privilege of interviewing a American serial killer known as the son of Sam. He has spent over 100 hours with the son of Sam David Berkowitz. And wrote a book about it and has experience and is bringing to us today some insights on how we can think about human behavior and maybe a different way and maybe find some levers we can pull in society in order to prevent future tragedies by attending to the. Root issues of some of these individuals before they act out, so this is going to be a great conversation. Please join in the conversation with any questions you have. If you’re joining us from Facebook, be sure to go to streamyard.com/facebook. If you want your comments to be seen, and if you’re over on Instagram, just keep in mind there is about a 20 or 32nd delay. Best place to watch is of course YouTube, but without further ado. Let’s meet doctor Capparelli. Hey, doctor, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you making time to share your insights and the wonderful work you are doing.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Patrick, thank you for having me on. It’s a pleasure to be here.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Ah, great to have. You. So you recently put out a book just to kind of get everyone up to speed. It is called Monster Mirror and it is your. Labor of love and the time you spent with David Berkowitz and you share the insights there. Can you tell us a little bit about what your the premise of your book is for those who aren’t familiar?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Sure, the book was released in October on Amazon. It actually ranked the number one in the true crime category. I want to say about four or five days in a row in October. When it was released. It’s my sit down with David Berkowitz. I sat with him for 34 sessions 100 hours. David Berkowitz is also known as the son of Sam. He’s an inmate at Shugang Correctional Facility in Wallkill, new. He’s been incarcerated for 46 years. Back in the 1970s, he had gunned down 13 people in the city of New York for about a period of a year and three or four months. He taunted the media. He left. Catch me if you can, letters. Every crime scene and he had the entire city spellbound by fear. In addition to the the the shootings, he also lit 1400 fires really had a mental breakdown. Not only personal breakdown, but the the the cumulative nervous breakdown of a city and I sat with David for 100 hours to discuss some of the mental health factors behind this crimes. Some of the psychological reasons, as well as some of the spiritual influences, and we also talked about his journey.
Speaker
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Over the last 35 years since he became a Christian in 1988, and what we call his journey of redemption.
Speaker 4
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
And that’s stories featured in the book Monster.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for the work you’ve done and 100 hours for anyone who’s been a therapist who’s watching. We have a lot of therapists in our audience. I’ll say that plan makes up the majority of our audience. It’s no small thing to clock 100 hours. And when you say 34 sessions in my head that I’m already translating that as like. At least 2 1/2 hours. Per session, and if anybody who’s been in a prison, especially in Mexico City Prison, knows it’s not like you can just walk in the door with your your court order, you know that you can visit this person. There’s a whole process to do it. You have to get clearance sometimes. There is red tape. Sometimes there’s a lockdown and it’s it takes time just to get in the room with someone, right? True. And so that’s no small feat. I imagine this took several years to accomplish all those interviews.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Truth. Yeah, it began with me writing David Berkowitz a letter in 2021. I had mailed him a copy of my prior book. A book on mental health from a biblical or Christian perspective. I knew David was a Christian. I’d heard his story on a few different talk shows. I had a heart for prisoners from the time I was young they used.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
To visit my. Dad in prison when I was about 9 or 10 years old, an Italian American families. When Dad goes to prison, the euphemism. School. So my mother used to say, well, I wanna see dad in cold. And and so I had compassion for people in prison at a young age, and then at 17, I was incarcerated as a juvenile in a juvenile detention center. I was a a troubled teenager. It’s actually where I faith in Christ, in my whole life, turned around at 18. So I had this predisposition towards prisoners. Male David. A book figuring it would encourage him and he wrote me back in. 2002. The one telling me he loved me to visit him, that I was the kind of guy that could tell his story. Being the fact I was a Christian as well as having an understanding of the human psyche and the breakdown of the psyche. And I met David early in 2022 and we met for a period of 15 or 16 months, about twice a month.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Wow.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
In the 34 sessions.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Wow. So you you were the one to reach out and. He responded. Did you get any pushback from him? Was it a process of of getting him to agree for you to come meet with him or was it was he pretty open from the beginning?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
No, he was open right away. I mean, he read. My book so he. Knew my worldview. He knew where I was coming from, and it was Kindred to his old worldview. He was very inspired by the book.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Plus we had. Some mutual friends, other ministers that I know that have ministered to him, so that kind of pain. The way and that first visit it was actually during COVID 2022, I mean well, it depends upon how you define COVID. But the prison was under COVID regulations. So we did have to wear masks for those first owners day three or four visits. It was a process of building a rapport. I mean, initially he wasn’t as open as he.
Speaker 3
Aye.
Speaker
Right.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Mm-hmm. The king, as we develop trust, but I’ll tell you by the end of the meeting meetings with him, I think he ends up unveiling. Ohh a lot more about himself than he have a planned. I mean certainly told me things that he had never told anybody with him that long. He had developed a friendship. In fact, I still see David probably visit him once every five or six weeks now. Visit him this coming Saturday at Short Hills. We we we live about maybe 3 hours.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
That’s wonderful.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I live about 3 hours in the pro. And so, yeah, yeah. My heart is for the inmate. Not that I believe he should be released. I mean, if he ever was released, though, he does go for parole. Every two years. I would strongly support him. But you know, he’s not chomping at the bit for that. He has accepted the fact that after 46 years of being in prison that he can probably make the. The biggest difference in society in and for the cause of the faith where he is then on the outside.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Yeah, well, it begs the question. So obviously that’s the most recent. Endeavors. What led you into this? And I think you you hinted at this a little bit, but what led you into the field of behavioral science given that you were a pastor and that was a huge part of your life, why behavioral science?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Well, I passed it for 16 years. The church in Rhode Island. Ohh. An hour from Boston. About two hours and 20 minutes from New York. It was a pretty urban church. People from all different walks of life, mental health problems, addictions. We had a very active 12 step meeting that would meet on Tuesday nights and inmates that were actually released from the prison and helped facilitate their reentry into society. So 16 years of being on the front lines. Lots of exposure to dysfunction of all sorts. I wanted a better understanding of, you know, what makes people tick. So in the process of pastoring throughout that 16 years, I pursued higher education. First, the bachelors than the masters and then eventually the PhD, 12 1/2 years of full-time college. So I think it was my direct experiences with people going all the way back to my dad and my own broken. Family. Ohh. Throughout my years of ministry that gave me a greater desire to understand the human.
Speaker
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Thank.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
You. Wow. Yeah, man, that’s no small feat. I mean, if anybody, you know, pastoring in and of itself is is putting a lot of energy out, right. You’re, you know, you’re present with the people, with your congregation, your, it’s it. It can be exhausting as I’m, I’m sure.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I actually suffered 2 heart attacks from the stress of that I had a small. Heart attack at 40.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Wow.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Two years later, I had the widow maker, which kills 83% of the people at 42. So pastoring took its toll. I resigned from pastoring in 2019 when HD was.
Speaker 4
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Complete I actually began my dissertation my research in 2019. I completed the four years of coursework and spent two years doing my research from 19 to 2021 and in the process wrote five books on mental health from a Christian perspective, marks the mayor is my fifth book and doors started opening in churches. Schools, prisons and I speak around the country on mental health because of my education and my experience.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Like that was one of the was not one of, if I recall on your interviews, you had mentioned you sent your book Doctor Jesus to the Berkowitz and that was maybe one of your touch points, right?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
That’s the. Correct. Yeah. Doctor. Jesus was a book written on mental health conditions such as depression, anxiety, PTSD, borderline personality disorder, and what the Bible has. Say anything disorders? Obviously, the Bible doesn’t mention the disorders per se, but some of the substrates, some of the roots, the underlying causes of the disorder, the scriptures. What’s that? What’s the scriptures take on these disorders? I wrote the book, Doctor Jesus. And that’s what David responded. Me too.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
What a what a fascinating intersection. Because we’re, you know, on the one hand you have the pastoral experience. You have the frame of reference of the the canons of the Bible to to give you context from a religious standpoint. But then you also have your PhD in behavioral science, and then you’re looking at maybe from a different lens. But there there are some intersection where you’ve been able to see so. Maybe with whether or not it conflict right? Sometimes when we look at the Bible, we think some people argue well the the Old Testament contradicts the New Testament, not necessarily. If you understand the the entire context right. Has that been your?
Speaker 4
Well the the.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I’m sorry, but the Bible is not only a book of theology. You know, telling us about the character of God, but it’s also a book of psychology. I mean, it’s full of narratives.
Speaker 3
Go ahead.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
And the narrative shows us the human struggle and human beings have not changed in the last several thousand years. Might be different dress and different lingo. But the heart of man is still the same. The Bible. Not only do I read it, it reads me. It really is one of the greatest psychology.
Speaker
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Textbooks around so when you read the Bible and you understand the science and when they blend together, it’s quite insightful.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
I can imagine absolutely, but I I also think about faith and we look at some of the horrors in society and one of the things we hear oftentimes from people who are struggling with their faith, you know, even if your faith is really strong, I think we’re only human. You know, we we look at things like tragedies like cancer. And then you take that a degree further right to serial killers and murder. How does one reconcile their faith? How did you reconcile your faith with this part of society? Right. This dark part of society where it says if there’s a, if there’s a God. How can these things be?
Speaker 3
Right.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Well, the Bible is not a book of blind optimism, and it doesn’t propose some type of utopian worldview. I mean, the Bible is very realistic on its picture of people of life. I mean, Jesus said in this world you’ll have trouble. The darkest parts of who we are.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
On blast in the Bible. So you know, when I have my Bible in one hand and the reality of life in the other, they reconcile pretty well because the Bible is not denying. The darkest side of of reality, it’s actually helping give context to it. It’s helping put in perspective, you know why we do what we do and really it’s it’s fundamental answer is that we are born with a sinful nature. We like to think that we’re wonderful people. That’s one of the presuppositions of my book. Once the mirror, umm, all amongst the mirror because I was expecting to look at a monster when I seen Dave.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Instead, I saw a mirror and I realized that the line between the so-called psychopath in the general population is a lot thinner than we want to imagine. We’d like to think that stereo killers are all the people, school shooters, or other people, mass murderers, other people. There are no other people. There’s just people. It’s human nature. And within human nature is a potential for both great good and horrific. So the Bible is very realistic about that. It gives us an accurate depiction of what mankind is capable of. Our modern day humanism would say you’re wonderful. You know, people like David Berkowitz are anomalous. Some kind of freak of nature. The Bible says no, the potential to kill really isn’t everyone and probably law and order is what keeps most people at Bay.
Speaker
9.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
So you know I come I believe coming from a Christian Judea worldview, a much more realistic perspective of mankind than the delusions of humanism.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Well, yeah. From a biblical standpoint, the heart is deceitful above all things and wicked, right? Meaning that it’s better than maybe natural law. We look at philosophy like John Locke would say, you know, the natural law is. That, you know we’re. All mostly well-intentioned, and we look out for each other. And you know, we try not to step on each other’s toes, but. If we’re isolated, right, you look at animals, right? When animals are isolated or when animal when there’s a lack of resources, right, then you see that that behavior come out that that guarding behavior. You can say the dogs in their toys or food right sometimes. So they’ll growl and they won’t want to give something up. And I think that the more scarcity in our mindset there is, the more these behaviors are are likely to take place, yeah.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Yeah, you know, you mentioned isolation. It’s it’s one of the themes that we explored, David and I when talking about what was behind his crimes, because that’s one of the questions I. Asked in the book. Steven, what drove you to senseless violence in one of those factors, I list 9 in the book there are 9 chapters, each chapter exploring one of the underlying causes of David’s madness. One of them is isolation.
Speaker
Goodnight.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
David was a very isolated individual and we know that isolation causes one to become aggressive. You know, University of Japan has done studies on rodents and have taken Lab Rats taking a sample of Lab Rats isolated them for a period of time, and when they returned to isolated rodents. Back to the community. The point of reentry. The isolated rodents attack. Their community, because we’re more isolated, we get aggressive, cortisol goes up, adrenaline goes up and we become less empathetic. Oxytocin drops our ability to empathize with people declines, while aggression goes up. So David Berkowitz was was one of those isolated individuals. In fact, if you look at most. Mass shooters. School shooters? You’ll see that the outsider mentality is one of the common denominators. David says that in his letter to the NYPD when he was doing the killings in the 70s, he says verbatim. I am an outsider, programmed to kill watching the world go by. Now, am I saying isolation is going to cause someone to become a serial killer? No. I mean, there’s there’s nine ingredients that make up the recipe that I discussed.
Speaker 4
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
In the book. I don’t think that you’re going to just go out tomorrow and you know, start gunning people down. But it is a process and I’ll tell you what, if you spend enough time. Pulling away from community brooding over your resentments because the resent resentment is another one of those ingredients. Prove your resentments isolating, justifying every wrongdoing you commit. You’ll be surprised that the kind of person you evolve.
Speaker
MHM.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Into.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
You know, serial kill is not. It’s not a a sudden thing. It’s more subtle than sudden, but I discussed that subtle process, that trajectory from childhood all the way up into his early 20s within the book months, the mirror.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Absolutely. And we’re looking at forensic psychology and profiling. I think we’re all familiar with some of the quote early warning signs like fire setting, bed wetting, torturing animals, right. Anybody in the clinical space. We’ve heard these things. In fact, they’re on many mental health triage forms, right when we’re even assessing somebody for treatment because these are some of the. The contributing factors right to you know, whatever you want to call it, psychopathy or social deviance or conduct disorder or antisocial personality disorder. But were you surprised when you met with Berkowitz that isolation was a factor? Where were you? Kind of like, oh, yeah, I figured that makes sense.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
This chip. Well, I wasn’t surprised that isolation was a factor, but the particular kind of isolation. To me, was insightful. David Berkowitz, I want you to think about this. He grew up in the most populated city in America. He’s not the Unabomber. He’s not tuczynski. And our hermit in a cabin, isolated society. He plays on baseball teams when he’s a kid. He’s a part of the Appalachian Mountain Club, and he’s an adolescent. He’s in the military for three years.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
And then in the wood store.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Lots of comrades. He’s around people all the time, but there’s a difference between being with people and bonding with.
Speaker 4
People.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Find the resolution that David experienced. He was not the loner in the corner. He was the loner in the crowd and we explored what it is that causes one to feel separated, lonely, even when surrounded by people. So I think the reader of the book is going to understand that they’re going to relate to it because a lot of people out there, you can imagine a Travis Bickle. Movie Taxi Driver back in the 1970s, you know, surrounded by people, even his career, he’s constantly got people in, in taxicab.
Speaker 4
Mm-hmm.
Speaker
Yeah.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
But yet it still has this outsider mentality, so the particular kind of isolation to me is what was very insightful. But the idea of it being isolation that was already evident in studying other mass murderers, other school shooters and other serial killers.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
I don’t want to drive past that too much because I feel like that is something that we talk about, but it’s easily it’s not. It’s easy to kind of. Forget right that. We can be surrounded by 100 people, but still feel alone. What do you think? Because that’s one layer, right? But what do you think contributes to someone feeling alone in today’s society, even even some place like New York City? It is it. Is it like a rejection sensitive dysphoria. Is that built into someone or do you think that is fostered?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Yeah. You know, I think it’s more fostered. I mean, I’m a proponent of attachment theory. I think that, David, in his early years had developed an attachment style. He was adopted. By the way, serial killers are 16 times more likely to be adopted than the general population. Not saying adoption causes serial killing? I mean, they’re far more people that are adopted that are not serial. Killers keep in mind.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Right, right.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
That the serial killers are a rare specimen? It’s not. They’re not everyday people, but what is common amongst adoptees often is reactive attachment disorder. Some kind of attachment style or way of relating to the world. It begins at an early age, probably at the moment of separation from the biological. Ohh life giver, you know there’s a bond disruption and we don’t quite understand that. I mean there have been books written on the subject. One of them is called primal wounds and how that bond disruption can affect one’s ability to trust. I mean, David Berkowitz’s adopted parents with new people, but they say in their own words. When they were alive, that loving him was very difficult from the very beginning. It was like trying to stick a piece of tape on on a wet surface. The affection wouldn’t stick. So David, you know, had a problem with trusting from a young age. So his ability to know and be known because that’s what relationships are about. Intimacy is oneness, you know. Yeah. Vulnerability to be vulnerable to knowing. To be known that vulnerability. Although we had a lot of friends, it just wasn’t present. He kept a lot of secrets.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Hmm. Vulnerability right?
Speaker 4
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
He had a. Lot of sidekicks, but he had more secrets than sidekicks. And he kept. Him feeling separated, even in a crowd. I mean, your secrets will will create great distance between you and the people around you.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
That’s fascinating. You know, think about adoption. I think about foster care, right? Because foster care, oftentimes, people are put into foster care for a reason. People don’t generally just give up their children unless, you know, I mean, there’s everybody has their reasons, but more, more often than not, children are removed from care. Right. And placement Foster and people adopt through foster care, so it makes.
Speaker
Umm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
We wonder if. You know, maybe trauma plays a part as well. Did did he talk about? I mean, obviously, depending on what age you’re adopted, but I’m wondering if there’s any recollection of trauma from his family of origin.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Well, you know, it doesn’t have to be the family of origin. It it can be. His case happened in. The school system.
Speaker
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Let me let me back up and say this when you’re trying to explain human behavior, you make what’s known as. An attribution you’re you’re.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
You’re explaining the cause of behavior. There are two kinds of attributions. There are dispositional attributions. Which means the cause of behavior comes from within. In the mental health community seems to focus a lot on dispositional attributions, like if someone has. A chemical. Imbalance. They need medication. But then there are situational attributions, and that’s what’s happening within the circumstance and. The power of the. Situation and what it can do to someone. I mean, it’s just it’s understated in.
Speaker
MHM.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
My opinion and looking back at David’s situations throughout childhood, the school was a place of great shame. This is 1950s New York City. David’s a very hyperactive kid. ADHD was not understood at that particular time. His teachers would often put his desk.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
In the center of the classroom, they create a circle of desks, and David was at the center, along with another student or two, and the teacher would say this is where the bad boys sit.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Ohh wow.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
For Dave’s going to class every day was very stressful. He would actually fake sick continually just to avoid the stress of going to school. The lots of shame also experiences the with bullying. He was overweight. He was also bullied by his own uncle.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Fame. Yeah.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Is a adopted father’s brother who would body body shame him often call him fat. He was a Jewish kid growing up in an Italian American neighborhood. OK. Was picked out a lot by some Italian. Neighbors for being Jewish. So he had lots of experience of shame.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
The prejudice, shame.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Prejudice. Yeah. Prejudice. Shame. Body shaming. All that. In addition to the the situation with the adoption that definitely contributed to his resentment.
Speaker
Hmm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Sounds like a theme of rejection.
Speaker
Picked.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
You know he. Had love, love from his parents, there’s still surrounding. You know, there were still used taking blows in other parts of his life. Big blows.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Yep.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Sounds like which didn’t help us. Trust issues I’m.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Sure. No, I mean you think about rejection from an evolutionary standpoint, you know, evolutionary psychology, the idea that we have a primitive brain. You know I’m not a Darwinist. I don’t believe we come out of animals. I mean, some might believe that that’s fine. But I do believe that there’s some truth to evolution, the idea that we have a primitive brain limbic system that predates. You know our our current conditions that goes all the way. Back to tribal times. And if you were a part of a tribe, if you were ousted from that tribe, if you were rejected in some way, that rejection meant you unsafe, that meant you were. Yeah. Right. Exactly. You. You were dangerous. So you, you know, the idea of.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Why wouldn’t arrive?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Being rejected, it’s more than an emotional blow. Ohh, it’s an attack on our physiological nature. It kicks into gear our survival instincts. We’re in fight flight mode now. Rejection equals major stress because our tribal makeup, you know, knows that we’re only safe in a tribe and we’re at danger outside that tribe.
Speaker 4
Hmm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
So what does one do like in? David’s case, did he? Did he say how he he coped with that? Were there any interventions were there? Any support offered them?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Well, no agent starts with fire since setting for him. I mean he lit by the time he was arrested in 1977. He lit 1400, fires the fire starting began around six or seven light bugs on fire, light toys on fire on his window sill. Now FBI.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
And all their interviews with arsonists. Have. Discovered that usually there’s one or two reasons why people set fires, either a they’re they’re experiencing some kind of sexual orgasm, or B it’s some type of venting or release of, you know, pent up anger. David’s case, it was B. He started expressing his anger at a very young age. By lighting bugs on fire toys and then eventually property, if you study the history of the South Bronx, the Bronx was experiencing constant fires all through the 60s and 70s. In fact, the NYPD we’re looking for.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
A serial arsonist by the name of the naming eludes me. But David Berkowitz was that serial arsonist. He would actually call the NYPD after lighting a fire and tell them, you know exactly where the fire was lit. He would log it in his diary and me. I PD would later on find out that the same one that was gunning people down was the same.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Wow.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
On light and fires, so it began for him with fire setting as well as a host of other. You know the forms of vandalism and you know ways of venting his anger. He’s a very angry kid. He was a ticking time bomb.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
So we often talk about evil, right manifestations of evil, and we think about, obviously serial killers. You know, we we there’s a shadow of evil or like you said, some preconceived notions around. Then we see them in a static vertical, right as they are what they did but. You know, as we’re talking about this, I’m wondering, you know, if there were a lot of warning signs, there were probably a lot of points of intervention, do you think? Evil is evil. Or do you feel like sometimes? It’s death by 1000 cuts. When it comes to the behavior change typological damage in this sense.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Yeah, well, I I. Believe in evil as an objective reality, just as I believe in God as an objective reality.
Speaker
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I believe that evil in and good God and Satan are supernatural beings, but they interact with natural phenomenon. So you know 1 can be under the influence of either or depending upon one’s choices. And David Berkowitz at a young age interact. Started with the wrong side. In fact, he believes that he was under the influence of demons when he committed the crimes, and I don’t doubt him now. That’s not at the expense of human responsibility. It’s like saying if one is drunk and they commit a crime that they’re not responsible, no, you you made a choice consciously to put the substance in your body. And the substance was probably, by the way, a truth serum.
Speaker
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Unleash what was suppressed on the inside. We know that about alcohol, people out under the influence of alcohol often what’s on the inside is what comes out, so it’s.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Right. Idea of losing your inhibitions, right?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Yeah, it it loosens your your moral and ambitions, your compulsions get weak. And in the case of David Berkowitz, he was under the influence of the demonic in his own words. But it was interacting with his inner resentments, his shame. Much of the violence was really an act of self destruction. He was looking to not only kill other people, but he wanted to go out in a blaze of fire. His last ultimate act. He wanted to do a shooting in the the Hamptons and Long Island at a club. He was going to die in a blaze of fire going out by suicide by cop. So he believes he was under the influence of demons. Now, that might sound horse and buggy to some listeners like come on. That’s like antiquated stuff. But 2/3 of the world still believe in demonic. Session.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
And we, as Americans can trade ourselves in saying, well, we’re more advanced than that. But guess what? We’re leading the way with serial killings, child ***********, human trafficking, school shootings. So who’s more advanced us or some village in Africa? Now? When I say the demonic, there are other serial killers that have also spoken of this.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
School shootings, yeah.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Ted Bundy, when he sat down with two FBI agents for 150 hours, he called it The X Factor. He said that there was something outside of himself. An entity is actually the word he used. He called it an entity that would possess him, not at the expense of free will, but we use this language every day when we do things that are unbecoming of our character. If we kick with. Cat we punch a wall, we lose our cool. We’ll say things like. I’m sorry, I don’t know what good end to me. I’m sorry, I don’t know what possessed.
Speaker
Me.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I’m sorry, I got carried away. So right there in our language, we’re insinuating some paranormal reality that whips up our emotions into a state of frenzy that takes us further than we have a plan on going.
Speaker 3
Hmm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Right, right. And so much so we can be taken aback by our own actions, right, because they’re what we would not identify with is our. Own character, right?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
True.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Yeah, I have to say the mind is a fragile thing.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Yes.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
And we should be careful about what we ingest, be that alcohol, be that other influence, music, what we choose for our mental diet has an impact, whether we like it or not, is what I’m hearing.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Most definitely. I mean, David himself was a big fan of horror movies from a young age. In fact, the movie taxi driver, which I referenced earlier in the interview. Played a role in his mindset when he was doing the killings. He’d seen taxi driver quite a few times. In the movie. Theater. It came out the same summer he was doing the shootings and the movie he related to this outsider named Travis Bickle, who by the end of the movie, you know, guns down a bunch of people. Actually does it with the 44 caliber. It’s what inspired you to go out and buy a 44 caliber. You took a road trip to Texas and bought it in Texas because you couldn’t get a gun in New York. So yeah, when you say diet, the things we watch.
Speaker
Thank.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Some of the movies he’d watched that time, and even some of the songs he was listening to, played a role in his in his in his mindset.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Yeah, I know we touched on the idea of attachment styles earlier, and I know I said you’re not attachment theorist per se, but we’re talking a lot about things like self-image being rejection sensitive.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Hmm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Shame, guilt being excluded from the tribe from society, right. The impact of a lot of these things. Trauma. Do you feel like somebody who has a less secure attachment, right.
Speaker
Thank you.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Whether that’s just we call that self esteem or they’re how they relate to society, how they feel, they’re accepted by society. Do you think the the more dissonance there is from that sense of security, the more influential somebody is in general? I’m just curious what your thoughts are. In that.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
The more info.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
But it just came to me as we’re talking about this in terms of being impressionable, right?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Oh, OK. So if if someone what you’re asking is if someone is removed. From the tribe, whether in reality or mentality, in their mind, they see themselves as an outsider. They become more impressionable to media influence.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
I’m just wondering I. Know it’s cause I was talking about this, yeah.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
So I think. I think you’re on to something because you know when. We. Are removed from reality. We’re prone towards fantasy, so if if David is going to have any social connection and he’s isolated, he’s going to develop those social. Means in an artificial kind of way. He relates to the character on the. On the TV screen.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Absolutely. There’s no. That’s exactly what I was thinking when you mentioned that repetitively watching the movie. Again, that’s sometimes what I think about the fantasy.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
We’re looking, we’re looking.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Right. Right. And then sometimes when we can’t, when somebody kind of comes out of that fantasy and realizes they can’t have what they want, sometimes that would make them angry and more likely to act out resentful. Right. You know, we’ve heard the term wound collector, right. You start taking up offences, you know, count you.
Speaker
Absolutely.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I mean you. Yes.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Know. Storing emotionally the offenses. Senses of rejection and things like that that could lead to a lot of. That pent up anger right when the fantasies don’t cut it anymore.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Most definitely. David was definitely a. Wound collector. He was one who took score. He made very careful notes in his mind of wrongs committed against him by neighbors, by society at large women. So from a young age he was keeping score and he was looking to get even. Resentment was a big piece of this. I mentioned isolation, I mentioned shame. But you know, resentment is is one of the bigger players of the story. And I think if if really any one of us, if we go down that road or resentment. I mean, I just. I’m just finishing crime and punishment. A fire door. Dostoyevsky back in the 1800s. And you got this, you know, average Joe wouldn’t call him a cycle. But he goes down this road of resentment, resentment towards society, resentment towards certain social classes. And you see how far it takes him and the months that he becomes, you know.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
It’s real easy for us to judge a serial killer and say I would never do that and such an awful person, but I I would rather take the posture of a guy named John Bradford who in the 1700s was watching a public execution, was back in those days when they would execute a man in London. It was a public. Yet and the entire town is calling him names. And you know what have you and Bradford stands up tall and he says. But for the grace of God. So go I. And that’s my posture towards David Berkowitz is I look at him and I say they’re both for the grace of God. So go. I I know what it means to be resentful. I’m glad I didn’t go down that path too far, because if I did, who knows what would have become of my own story.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Absolutely. And I think coming full circle, that’s absolutely the theme that I’m getting from the work. You’ve as I understand it, that you’ve been doing as a reminder that you know pride comes before fall and nobody is above making poor choices. Given enough given enough damage, right enough distraction from our moral compass. When we start forgetting our why, you know.
Speaker
Hmm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
You start, you know, it’s easy to start justifying. Poor decisions, right? I’m going to get mine. I’m get my piece of the pie. Everybody else does, you know. And that’s like you said that’s I think an easy. It’s a very natural. Inclination. Right. Especially if we’re in a in a, in a negative space. Right. I think you mentioned in one of your one of your interviews something. That really jumped out to me. Is that anger masks underlying emotions right? That I think you said something along the lines of anger makes us feel powerful, but it might be masking a fear might be masking. On another point, prime emotion. Could you just talk a little? Bit about that.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Yeah. I mean, it’s not a new idea. That’s really the Freudian perspective of anger is that it’s a defense mechanism, defect defense mechanisms, whether it be addiction denial or.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Mm-hmm.
Speaker
MHM.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
OK, block pain and they they defense mechanisms. The goal of a defense mechanism is to make us feel powerful in a moment when we feel vulnerable.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Yeah.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
So anger in that way is a secondary emotion. It’s a cover up emotion, and David Berkowitz’s case, it was a cover up for a lots of shame. I had a chance. I had the opportunity to see David Berkowitz very angry. One of the sessions I showed up and he had.
Speaker
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
He had some words with another inmate. It was more of a one way conversation, the inmate said. Something very degrading and I showed up like right after that situation. David was in bad headspace and I got a chance for about 2 1/2 hours to watch a man manage his anger like a pro. You know, it’s one thing to have anger. It’s another thing to anger.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I have you. And I would say David had had anger, but anger didn’t have him. Typically, when people get angry, they externalize. It’s all about people, places, things. They vent, they lament. They’re always pointing the finger outward. The threat is outside of them.
Speaker
Ah.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Mm-hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
It takes great maturity to self reflect. While you’re angry that really is a hallmark of someone that’s gone through great therapy, they’ve gone through some, they’ve done some work, some real inner work, and David’s self reflected. He peeled back the layers of the of the of the onion. And you know, we talked about where that anger. Came from and and he he told me about the shame. In fact. In fact he told me about a therapist when he was a little. Kid and Mrs. Saucedo off. She was an older lady. She would ask him. David, why are you still angry? And he said he couldn’t answer the question, he said. But now here, here I am in my 70s and I know that it’s shame that when I feel embarrassed, I’d rather feel angry because anger makes me feel powerful. Shame makes me feel vulnerable, and I rather be powerful than vulnerable. And in that session he became very vulnerable. And I think once you identify anger source, you reduce its force. Once you get to what’s underneath it, just identifying the initial feeling, the thing that you’re running from right away, it mitigates the anger because the anger is deceived in thinking the threat is from without the moment you self reflect. Realized that the real. Issue the thing I’m really running from. Is is from within and and David was able to peel back the onion and expose what was underneath and in this case it was. Was deep shed.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Wow, I love that I love that because that is.
Speaker
What?
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
I think you can go going back what you were saying about our survival instincts, right, that we look. For external threats.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Hmm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Right. That’s what fear is about. It’s what anxiety is about, right? We’re scanning. For external threats.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Mm-hmm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
But we live in a society now for the most cases. Unless you live in certain areas, most, most, most of us don’t have external threats on a regular basis, right? And it’s the inner work that needs to be done. And I wonder if that’s why so. Many inmates. Find solace in. State be that Christianity, be that other religions. Because it gives them the tools. And sorry to say, I don’t think necessarily the mental health system is very robust as it should be in the prison system. They don’t have access to therapists like they should. They don’t have those readily available tools. What do they have? They have 12 step and they have religion to give them structure to give them tools to help self regulate as you said. That you saw first hand with Berkowitz and how he was able to recalibrate himself. Without acting out right?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Most definitely. What David found in prison. Ironically, he he couldn’t find it in society. He found he found his faith. He found a a place of belonging. He meets with about 15 to 17 inmates twice a week for midweek Bible study and then a Sunday moral service alongside a Korean. Chaplain and he’s a part of that community. He feels like an insider. In fact, they call him Pastor Dave. Boss is what they call him the title. But he’s become a father figure and that, that community and that walk of faith.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Cool, yeah.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Is really what is transformed his life over the last 35 years. Now I know the skeptics will say, well, how do? You know it’s not. A jailhouse conversion. Well, let me respond to that. It’s hard to fake a jailhouse conversion for 35 years. Yeah, the jailhouse conversions last about six months, and it’s right before. A parole hearing. To make an impression, that’s all, boy. David’s been very consistent about his faith. And when I say consistent I, I mean involvement. I mean, he’s invested in this space. Yes. For the 3 1/2 decades, that’s not something you can. Fake that long. I’ve dealt with other serial killers. I’ve dealt with two of them, and I I learned pretty quickly that it was jailhouse religion and that they were just using the talk, and they really didn’t have the sincere conversion that David experienced. So I know, I know the difference plus. Seeing David not just his actions, but I’ve seen his reactions. Actions people can put on a good act. Shakespeare said that he said the world is a stage and people are it’s players, but reactions are actions. When a man’s caught off guard, when David’s angry, he’s stressed, things don’t go his way, you know, it’s unscripted, it’s visceral. And I would say that the reactions are the real.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Right.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Fruit of someones behavior because fruit really what is fruit? It’s vegetation on a tree that’s under pressure and when a person behaves under pressure, that’s the real fruit of who they are. And I’ve tasted David’s fruit and I would say.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Right.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
It’s it’s good fruit.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Wow, that is so well put and I I don’t think I’ve ever heard it put quite that way, right. If you, if you want to see somebody’s level of maturity, is what we’re talking about, look at their reactions, not just their actions. That’s solid advice and. I’m going to keep that one.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I get. I get that I got three daughters. They they’ll call me about guys.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Yeah.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
You know, they, they, they want to know if this guy that they’re dating is the right guy. I’m always telling them. Slow down. Watch him. Watch how he behaves in a traffic jam. Watch how he behaves when things don’t go his way. Watch him on a stressful day of work. Spend enough time. Nothing can be trusted until it’s been tested and you can test it by. By paying attention to not just actions, but reactions over a period of time.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Or get a new. Then you’ve been had the privilege of being a fly on the wall with with Berkowitz for quite a while. You know, you’ve seen the longitudinal, you’ve seen them in different situations. And so that sounds a lot, absolutely. And so I’m wondering, you know, what would you hope that our readers, your readers, get from this book, like in terms of takeaways, what’s the macro application life application here in terms of our responsibility in society?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I think #1 you’re going to walk away and. You’re going to do some self reflecting. You’re gonna realize that you might not be a serial killer. Probably are not a serial killer. But you do hold resentments, and you’re going to find your story in David’s story, and you, you’re gonna, maybe surprisingly, see yourself in some of his anecdotes of his background. So I think it’s a real I think it’s. A soul searching. Book. Hence why I call it monster. Mirror it really is a mirror. Secondarily, you’re going to be less judgmental of people like David Berkowitz. We live in a, in my opinion, we live in a very sanctimonious culture. Cancel culture. I mean, I. You know, if you look at social media, there seems to be a great deal of focus on people’s Facebook posts or different things they write on social media. There’s a great deal of focus on, you know, observing other people like intuitive. Sort of language, but not much introspection. A lot of intuition. You know, perception of others, but not much introspection, perception of oneself. And I’d like to see that shift in our society. Maybe we go on Facebook and rather than blasting somebody else, whether we’re blasting our narcissistic ex or we’re blasting people that work, maybe there’s a confession, you know, here’s what I’m I’m struggling with today. You don’t see that much candor anymore in our canceled culture. There’s a lot of pointing. Singer and everyone else. We got a PhD and everybody else’s issues, but we’re in kindergarten when it comes to our own.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Isn’t that the truth?
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
So I’d like to see that shift. I really like to see more self reflection, more introspection, and less judging of other people in our culture. And I think we’d have a a whole lot healthier of a society.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
And so that would apply. So if we work on the self. Then everybody wins. Absolutely. Yeah. And whatever, we.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Look at the books on the on the shelf at Barnes and Noble. It’s. All about marrying. In a narcissist, you know, or how to deal with the narcissist at work. I mean where where’s the book about the narcissist inside of you? That book doesn’t guarantee it, it’s.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Maps. I’m going to steal that title, yes.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
It’s true, it’s always the other first always to the first so.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Absolutely. And so that sounds like that’s half the battle. What can we do as a society if we recognize some of these red flags in our youth, right? What is our responsibilities to society to? Ohh. Firm up support for for others that we see are are in their vulnerable, vulnerable position, who are being pushed out of the tribe, who are being rejected, who are visibly dealing with shame rather than pathology, like pathologizing their behaviors per se, how do we, how do we serve them? To hopefully. Prevent. Future damage the from things taking root. Do you have any thoughts on that and what? We can do as a whole.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
I do. You know, I read a book last year by Susan Claybord. She’s the mom of Dylan Claypole the Columbine shooter. Excellent book if you don’t buy monster mirror, go on Amazon and buy her book and she she, you know, talks about her being a mother and looking back at Dylan’s childhood. And she stresses the need for education at a young age that incorporates emotional intelligence.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Hmm.
Speaker 3
Hmm.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
That we teach, we socialize kids better from the young age. We teach them how to get along with others, how to regulate their own emotions. I mean, if you look at the curriculum of public schools from the time kids in head start all the way. High school. Of course. You’ve got your math and your social studies and your science and and all this and. That’s all important. But where is the emotional? IQ aspect of education. It’s really there’s not much of it there. So I think we could do a better, better job at cultivating empathy. Socially, socializing our kids and the younger age, teaching them self reflection and anything to do with EQ. I think would would go a long way in our society, especially in the era of social media. Because our social skills are going to get weaker and weaker now, I think social media is a great supplement for relationships. It’s a horrible substitute. So if you’re using social media to supplement real life relationships and you’ve got a a good core of people that you meet with on a regular basis and you, you know, you can relate to these people.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Right, right.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
But if you’re using social media as a substitute, and it’s the only thing you have that digital contact and I can say a lot about that, that’s a whole nother show. No, that digital connection is not the same thing as a real human connection. And I think that we need to. We need to teach relationships and teach empathy at a very young age.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Really. And we can do that on so many levels, right? We can do that in the home. If a parent sees that their kid is spending more time on the screen than they are with real people, that’s that’s something they can be proactive about. Right? School district. The school districts can can implement more programs that teach things like emotional intelligence and self regulation and soft skills, which we know, like you said.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Most definitely.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Are far our greater indicators of success than is like Q.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Yes, most definitely, I IQ, you’re. But Stan, I mean, people have fired from jobs, not because of the lack of intelligence they fired from jobs because they do not play well with others. So to.
Speaker
MHMM.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Speak exactly.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
So yeah that. Seems to be the real reason is it’s a social issue, not a an intelligence issue.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Right. While so much to digest here, I know I’ll be rewatching and relistening to this episode because there’s just so so many Nuggets of wisdom about especially our role in society and how we can help serve those who are. They’re being left behind in society to to lift them up and help them have a better future, and that helps us all. And we start, but like you said, insight into ourselves and then how we can show up for other people, right, pay attention be looking for opportunities to to be of service to others, right be it.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Hmm.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
At the six. Year old, who’s lighting fires, be that to the grown up who’s isolated. Right at any level we have opportunities and if we if we pay attention, right? So thank you so much Doctor. I really AM, and I’m so glad you made it on today to share the work you’re doing in this book and the implications to society and and how we can do better. So thank you for that. So anyone who is interested in grabbing your book. They can do so right here at Amazon. You have right here, Monster Mirror. And that is your most recent book. In addition to you said four or five other books you’ve put out. So if anybody wants to to binge read on the wonderful work you’re doing, that would be fantastic. So.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
OK.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Any any last minute questions before we we shut it down anybody before we land the plane, I think.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Think we’re good? With that, I wish you a great week, doctor. And you’re always welcome back on to share the the work you’re doing.
(Dr. Mike Caparelli, Ph.D.)
Thank you, Patrick, for having me doing a great work. Brother, keep shining.
(Patrick Martin LCSW)
Thank you likewise. Thank you. Hey, if you’re getting value from this content and you haven’t done so already, be sure to like and subscribe to the YouTube channel and podcast and be sure to subscribe to the MHT newsletter. That way you don’t miss out on any new content as it’s released links in the description.
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